Michael Sweet/Stryper

Wow this has been some interesting reading!!! God bless you all!!

As shultz would say on Hogans Heroes " I know nothing" Ha ha

Well, I've explained that in pretty much every way I can though out the course of the thread, so I guess I don't have anything I could add to that. I'm not up to date of Liberty and Justice is doing.

Preacherman777 wrote:

Well, I've explained that in pretty much every way I can though out the course of the thread, so I guess I don't have anything I could add to that. I'm not up to date of Liberty and Justice is doing.

Double CD. 1st Cd is a cover of tuners like Ice Ice Baby, MMMBOP (sung by Guardians Jamie Rowe), Staying Alive, & others. LNJ founder Justin is a Christian, so I'm just curious if those who feel Stryper is bad for doing the covers album feel the same way about LnJ?

Preacherman777 wrote:

Quote :

The last time I checked there was no "debate section" on this forum. There are several sites that invite debate over Christian issues/doctrine etc., but this isn't one of them.

Then let me ask a question. Is debate or passionate discussion over the differing ideas not permitted at this board? If that's the case, then it would seem there are some threads that should have not been allowed to even get off the ground.

Why do your last several post seem so adversarial (maybe it's just me).

I'm not sure what other threads you are talking about. Most of the thousands of threads on this board included people discussion of new or old Christian music or other interests. Not hashing about ad nauseam with 2 or three other people over whether or not a certain band's actions are aligned with scripture for 8 pages.

No I don't think "debate" is disallowed here, but there certainly isn't a section specifically dedicated to it (which just might infer that it isn't a popular subject...maybe). But that is the problem with making rules, for some reason people try to find a way to abuse the intent of having the rules in the first place. (not suggesting that is what you are trying to do....)

I also think there is a difference between "passionate discussion" and "debate". I'm pretty certain nobody needs to "win" a passionate discussion. So based on your earlier statement about Alldat potentially shutting down the thread to "win" I assumed that you thought this was (or had turned into) a debate or argument.

What it looks like to me (this includes most posters on this thread, yes me too) is a group of Christians getting ugly with each other over something we really have no certainty about whatsoever....just opinions.

Chosen One:
Well, now wait a minute. I have never said that Stryper was bad for doing the covers album. I said I believed it was bad for their witness. I don't judge people in the sense of so and so is worse than me because they did this or that. I'm as much a sinner and in need of just as much grace as anyone, so that's not what this is about.

I've also stated pretty clearly that just doing covers of secular songs is not necessarily a problem. It really depends on the kinds of songs being covered and the kind of bands being glorified in the process. And again, all of this is just my opinion. Granted, I believe it's an opinion informed by God's word, but it's not like I'm saying I am the be all end all authority on such matters. I'm just expressing my opinion. That's all this has ever been about.

Quote :

Why do your last several post seem so adversarial (maybe it's just me).

I didn't think I was. From my perspective I've just been answering questions.

Quote :

I'm not sure what other threads you are talking about. Most of the thousands of threads on this board included people discussion of new or old Christian music or other interests. Not hashing about ad nauseam with 2 or three other people over whether or not a certain band's actions are aligned with scripture for 8 pages.

This thread and any other thread that asks for people's opinions about potentially controversial subject matter.

Quote :

No I don't think "debate" is disallowed here, but there certainly isn't a section specifically dedicated to it

Never claimed there was or that there should be.

Quote :

I also think there is a difference between "passionate discussion" and "debate". I'm pretty certain nobody needs to "win" a passionate discussion. So based on your earlier statement about Alldat potentially shutting down the thread to "win" I assumed that you thought this was (or had turned into) a debate or argument.

Nope. Just felt that maybe he saw it that way and was trying to silence dissent. I have no interest in arguments, though I don't think debates are harmful, so long as they don't get ugly with personal attacks against those involved in the debate. I saw this whole thing as just passionate discussion about a controversial topic, and one in which I said time and time again "This is just my opinion and I don't condemn anyone for thinking differently. I never attacked anyone for disagreeing with me nor claimed that anyone was anything other than Christian, so how this thing turned supposedly ugly is something I still haven't figured out.

Quote :

What it looks like to me (this includes most posters on this thread, yes me too) is a group of Christians getting ugly with each other over something we really have no certainty about whatsoever....just opinions.

And again, what have I been saying all along. "This is just my opinion." Yet, for some strange reason some have seemed to really have a problem with me for expressing my opinions. You have to understand that from where I sit, I'm not the one who has been intolerant here. Heck, I don't even condemn Stryper over all of this. I have said I don't think it wise and that I think it's a poor witness, but once again, I've never said that they nor any of you are not Christian or that anyone is bad or evil. So why am I so bad?

Preacherman777 wrote:

.....I've never said that they nor any of you are not Christian or that anyone is bad or evil. So why am I so bad?

I hope I didn't suggest that you were "bad", because that wasn't my intent. I did say that your resent posts seemed argumentative to me, but maybe they didn't seem that way to anyone else.

P777...thanks for your answers. I appreciate that you are loyal to what you believe. While I personally disagree with you over everything...music and theology and stryper..I suggest we all just agree to disagree and move on. If you are no longer into stryper or michaels musical choices that cool..but let it go and let those of us who are into the covering and secular music continue on. We all know what each other think and to be honest I don't think any of us are going to change our views...IMO. lets all let it go and just respectfully disagree. I think this thread has run its course and should RIP.

I agree. I should say however, that all of this has not soured me on Stryper. I'm sure I will continue to buy and enjoy the vast majority of their music. I'm looking forward to Michael's solo album as well as the re-record due out in the spring.

Preacherman777 wrote:

I'm looking forward to Michael's solo album .........

Me too, it sounds like it might be a real rocker.

Staybrite wrote:

rich71 wrote:

brokentulsa wrote:

When it comes down to it I think stryper recorded this album because they wanted to and really didn't care what anyone thought. Oz being in tattoo vinyl shows his views...which I agree with.

Nothing more really needs to be said about that right. We know were Oz Fox stands. Look where he is. Its about the Love of God and singing music that uplifts, honors, and glorifies God.

Vinyl Tattoo, doesnt do that.

This is a CHRISTian Hard Music Forum correct.

Rich that sounds like a personal attack on Oz and as if you are questioning his faith. Please clarify If that was not your intent. If it was your intent, please refrain from doing so.

Correct, this is a Christian Music Forum, and with very few exceptions the vast majority of threads are only about Christain bands. Keep in mind that the definition of "Christian band" has become very difficult to nail down in the last decade or so, but the majority of conversation here centers around Christian bands, or bands with mostly Christian members. But occasionally conversations about side projects (be they secular or Christian) performed by Christian artists will come up, and they are not "off limits" as a rule.

Bro Oz needs to clarify where he stands and why he is in a secular band singing highway to hell.

But Rich he doesn't "need" to do anything of the sort. If you have a problem with Oz or Stryper you don't need to listen to them or purchase their products. But calling him to account on a forum he has likely never heard even of (let alone never posted at, or joined) just seems a bit ridiculous. (Unless you were just joking)

Staybrite wrote:

But Rich he doesn't "need" to do anything of the sort. If you have a problem with Oz or Stryper you don't need to listen to them or purchase their products. But calling him to account on a forum he has likely never heard even of (let alone never posted at, or joined) just seems a bit ridiculous. (Unless you were just joking)

I like Strypers early music mostly and some of Murder By Pride. Anyway I was kidding. Viynl Tattoo isnt edifying :xand Highway to Hell isnt edifying or praise and worship not kidding about that.

Quote :

So I'm assuming then since there seems to be some issues with Christians
doing a covers album of secular songs, that there will be issues then
with Liberty N Justice's The Cigar Chronicles, right?. Or is this just
an opinion on Stryper?. And no I have no problem with LNJ's new album at
all either, but I was just curious?. I would venture to guess that not
every Christian muscian out there is influenced by other Christian
artist, so honestly (no pun intended) what's the big deal with them
covering their favorites.

I hope there isn't a problem with it! I played on the song "YMCA". While the song itself doesn't have any lyrical problems, when sang by the original all-homosexual band it comes off as a recruiting song for the gay community. Oh, no! I've lost my witness by playing on this track. Honey, where do we keep the sackcloth and ashes?

Yes, that is a ton of sarcasm. But, that's how silly I see this whole issue with Stryper. Sure, their choices of songs might seem a bit odd, but that is between them and Jesus. To say that they have "lost their witness" over this just seems to be a blanket way of saying that they sinned big by doing this cover album. That's the only way we lose our witness as Christians is to sin. Personally, I think the covers album may have hurt them with some folks within the church, but it probably will HELP them with the folks they normally play in front of. The covers album probably helped their street credibility that will make it easier for people to receive the songs about Jesus that they are already doing and will continue to do.

Good point alldat. Some of the songs on the Covering I don't like, but really, you could listen to any of their other albums and they're either about God/Jesus or something in their lives and how it relates to their faith.

Quote :

Honey, where do we keep the sackcloth and ashes?

Well, as brokentulsa requested I'd like to be able to just let this go and agree to disagree, but if folks are going to continue to mock what I've had to say, it's going to be pretty hard to do that. Unless I'm mistaken, letting it go means we all drop it. And I would appreciate it if people are going to quote me, they at least do it accurately. I never said Stryper "Lost their witness." I said I believed the covers album had damaged or harmed their witness and yes, there is an important difference. I would happily break that down for you all and exactly why I believe that, but as I said, I'm trying to keep my agreement with brokentulsa. If others are not interested in that agreement, just let me know and we can continue the discussion.

Quote :

Well, as brokentulsa requested I'd like to be able to just let this go
and agree to disagree, but if folks are going to continue to mock what
I've had to say, it's going to be pretty hard to do that.

I'm not mocking you. I just used yours and Rich's reasoning and applied it to the Liberty N Justice track I played on to illustrate my point. Seriously, have I damaged my witness by playing on this track? I don't feel that it will at all.

Quote :

And I would appreciate it if people are going to quote me, they at least
do it accurately. I never said Stryper "Lost their witness." I said I
believed the covers album had damaged or harmed their witness and yes,
there is an important difference.

Who did this damage their witness to? I cannot see how this will hurt them with anyone except for people within the church who got a bee in their bonnet about it. I doubt people outside the church ever gave it a second thought. As I said, this will probably win them a little street credibility with their non-Christian fans and thus get them listening to more of the material they already do that exalts Jesus.

But, that's been my position since page one.

So using your logic, if the prophets of God had gone about making replicas of pagan idols and sold them them among the pagans in order to show the pagans that they can be really good at that too, it would have won them some street cred with the pagans and they might have won more converts? Seriously? What part of 2 Cor. 614-18 doesn't work for you?

For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”
17 Therefore,

“Come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”
18 And,

“I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty.”

Preacherman777 wrote:

So using your logic, if the prophets of God had gone about making replicas of pagan idols and sold them them among the pagans in order to show the pagans that they can be really good at that too, it would have won them some street cred with the pagans and they might have won more converts? Seriously? What part of 2 Cor. 614-18 doesn't work for you?

For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”
17 Therefore,

“Come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”
18 And,

“I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty.”

So what about Christians working in the film and television industry on shows/movies with cussing, violence, etc? Should they leave that industry?

What about me? I work in a secular mental health facility that operates on behavior analysis which rejects any higher power/supreme being? Can I still use those techniques even though they were developed by an atheist?

What about plumbers who work for the plumber's union with non-Christian plumbers who drink, smoke, gamble and do all sorts of other things?

Why is a band - any band - different? Shouldn't we all, as Christians, work for Christian companies and shop at Christian grocery stores and eat at Christian restaurants and watch Christian television and only buy Christian toilet paper for our Christian toilet?

I'm being extreme but what makes music different? Now, please understand that I'm particular about what secular music I listen to. But the verses you quoted tell us to be separate - not separated. The Bible says in the world but not of it - meaning believers who are still part of the community, culture and society where they reside.

rich71 wrote:

Staybrite wrote:

rich71 wrote:

brokentulsa wrote:

When it comes down to it I think stryper recorded this album because they wanted to and really didn't care what anyone thought. Oz being in tattoo vinyl shows his views...which I agree with.

Nothing more really needs to be said about that right. We know were Oz Fox stands. Look where he is. Its about the Love of God and singing music that uplifts, honors, and glorifies God.

Vinyl Tattoo, doesnt do that.

This is a CHRISTian Hard Music Forum correct.

Rich that sounds like a personal attack on Oz and as if you are questioning his faith. Please clarify If that was not your intent. If it was your intent, please refrain from doing so.

Correct, this is a Christian Music Forum, and with very few exceptions the vast majority of threads are only about Christain bands. Keep in mind that the definition of "Christian band" has become very difficult to nail down in the last decade or so, but the majority of conversation here centers around Christian bands, or bands with mostly Christian members. But occasionally conversations about side projects (be they secular or Christian) performed by Christian artists will come up, and they are not "off limits" as a rule.

Bro Oz needs to clarify where he stands and why he is in a secular band singing highway to hell.

Well, as far as I know and nothing leads me to the contrary, his stands for God and is a Christian. So he performs in a cover band for fun, which is what I am sure it is. I mean it is pretty low to in a way call his faith into question because of being in a cover band. It's like saying you can't be a Christian and be in a non-christian band because of your faith. I just think that as Christians, who are we to questions someones faith if you don't know their heart or life.

Ismael81:
Yes, exactly. In the world but not of it. That is the entire point I've been trying to make. Why are we trying to emulate the world and it's ways? Why do we have to get down and roll in the mud in order to be relevant to the culture? Is God's Word insufficient for conversion of men's souls? Are we going help people recognize their hopeless position of rebellion and having broken God's law and being in need of salvation by teaching them to bang their heads to songs like Breaking the Law and Highway to Hell? Forgive me, but I just fail to see how that works. We are called to live a life that is peculiar and different. A life that makes them wonder what it is that we have that they don't. How do we that by emulating their culture? Nobody is talking about having everything we do be Christian this or Christian that, that's not even close to the point I'm trying to make. Rather, it's about who we are and what we reflect as we engage the world. Are we trying to prove that we can be just as cool and bad ass as they can be or are we trying to show those who are dying of spiritual hunger where they can be fed? I'm sorry, but all too often I think we make this about what we want and what we think is cool and what we want to hold on to and we disregard that part about not being of this world. We can be all things to all men in order to save some by being a rocker to rocker, but not by glorifying the those who glorify sin and evil. But you know, we could debate this til the end of time, but it really boils down to what does the Bible say. I've offered up some scripture and I could offer up a lot more to make my point, but if you all really believe this approach of Stryper's is just fine, then please make a Biblical case for Christians being that way. Otherwise, it's all just talk.

P777..I think you misinterpret that scripture. I am on my phone but when I get back to my computer I will type out a response.

Preacherman777 wrote:

Ismael81:
We can be all things to all men in order to save some by being a rocker to rocker, but not by glorifying the those who glorify sin and evil

But if it's about Stryper singing Breaking the Law or Oz playing Highway to Hell I wouldn't necessarily say they are glorifying evil or sin. No offense but that's like saying Chris (alldat) is glorifing sin & evil by playing on the YMCA track that was made famous by a band who is openly homosexual (a sin against God). Or a band like Skillet playing in clubs with bands like Papa Roach,Theory of Deadman and other rock bands who are into partying it up and such. Shoot, it's like saying I am glorifying evil & sin because I bought the latest Hinder CD that has references to sleeping around and drinking. I respect your opinions and all preacherman and have no issues with you or anyone else at all, I just have a different opinion than you. Thinking of starting a Bride thread, do I dare? Ha HA HA