Michael Sweet says that Stryper is not a christian rock band

ishmael81 wrote:

Why is art treated so differently? God forbid (pun intended) artists that are Christians make money...

Some of us prefer to consume only Christian art though I admit I make some concessions on books/ movies. That doesn't mean a band has to say they are a Christian band or a band with Christians. Boils down to the lyrics (and sometimes their ministry) for me. I did play some songs from secular bands with Christian lyrics on my show before. I'm OK with listening to Creed (I believe you mentioned them earlier) since while they/he have had some issues, most of the songs can easily relate to the Christian worldview.

While I understand artists that rely on their art for a living need to make enough to survive, it remains a ministry (for Christian artists at least). The moment they cease to think of it that way (and more like a business) is the moment they need to do something else since they are then honoring themselves instead of God.

ishmael81 wrote:

That's what I was saying SA, sort of. Does anyone think the local Christian bookstore is serving two masters since they send me monthly sale bills?

Why is art treated so differently? God forbid (pun intended) artists that are Christians make money...

Um ... you ask why art is treated differently, and yet in your first sentence call the bookstore a "Christian" bookstore.  What makes the store Christian ... how it is run? Who runs it? What they sell? What they do with the profits? The building?

topshot rhit wrote:

ishmael81 wrote:

Why is art treated so differently? God forbid (pun intended) artists that are Christians make money...

Some of us prefer to consume only Christian art though I admit I make some concessions on books/ movies. That doesn't mean a band has to say they are a Christian band or a band with Christians. Boils down to the lyrics (and sometimes their ministry) for me. I did play some songs from secular bands with Christian lyrics on my show before. I'm OK with listening to Creed (I believe you mentioned them earlier) since while they/he have had some issues, most of the songs can easily relate to the Christian worldview.

While I understand artists that rely on their art for a living need to make enough to survive, it remains a ministry (for Christian artists at least). The moment they cease to think of it that way (and more like a business) is the moment they need to do something else since they are then honoring themselves instead of God.

Amen.  All I will add is that sometimes decidedly secular bands, those that make no proclamation concerning having anything to do with Christ, are worth listening to because they have influential members that are Christians.  Kansas, for example, had Kerry Livgren (not always a Christian, but by the sixth album, Monolith), as well as Dave Hope and John Elefante for later albums.

topshot rhit wrote:

ishmael81 wrote:

Why is art treated so differently? God forbid (pun intended) artists that are Christians make money...

Some of us prefer to consume only Christian art though I admit I make some concessions on books/ movies. That doesn't mean a band has to say they are a Christian band or a band with Christians. Boils down to the lyrics (and sometimes their ministry) for me. I did play some songs from secular bands with Christian lyrics on my show before. I'm OK with listening to Creed (I believe you mentioned them earlier) since while they/he have had some issues, most of the songs can easily relate to the Christian worldview.

While I understand artists that rely on their art for a living need to make enough to survive, it remains a ministry (for Christian artists at least). The moment they cease to think of it that way (and more like a business) is the moment they need to do something else since they are then honoring themselves instead of God.

I understand your points but think about what you do for a living. I have no idea so let's pretend you're a salesman. Would your resume' say that you are a Christian salesman? Do you go to interviews and tell the hiring manager that? No.

By using that label, the world has relegated "Christian" artists to the corner, ignoring them regardless of their contribution. I'm reminded of a quote by Rich Mullins:

“I would like to encourage you to stop thinking of what you're doing as ministry. Start realizing that your ministry is how much of a tip you leave when you eat in a restaurant; when you leave a hotel room whether you leave it all messed up or not; whether you flush your own toilet or not. Your ministry is the way that you love people. And you love people when you write something that is encouraging to them, something challenging. You love people when you call your wife and say, 'I'm going to be late for dinner,' instead of letting her burn the meal. You love people when maybe you cook a meal for your wife sometime, because you know she's really tired. Loving people - being respectful toward them - is much more important than writing or doing music.”

BearDad wrote:

ishmael81 wrote:

That's what I was saying SA, sort of. Does anyone think the local Christian bookstore is serving two masters since they send me monthly sale bills?

Why is art treated so differently? God forbid (pun intended) artists that are Christians make money...

Um ... you ask why art is treated differently, and yet in your first sentence call the bookstore a "Christian" bookstore.  What makes the store Christian ... how it is run? Who runs it? What they sell? What they do with the profits? The building?

What makes the store Christian is that the corporation that owns it puts that label on it. That store was not redeemed by Jesus' death. Neither is art.

That store is labelled Christian so as to distinguish what type of products they sell and to shoo away those that don't want to buy those items. How is it ministering to anyone outside the body? Jesus talked about the world seeing our good deeds and glorifying the Father; if our exclusive little club doesn't allow for outsiders, who's going to see those works?

ishmael81 wrote:

BearDad wrote:

ishmael81 wrote:

That's what I was saying SA, sort of. Does anyone think the local Christian bookstore is serving two masters since they send me monthly sale bills?

Why is art treated so differently? God forbid (pun intended) artists that are Christians make money...

Um ... you ask why art is treated differently, and yet in your first sentence call the bookstore a "Christian" bookstore.  What makes the store Christian ... how it is run? Who runs it? What they sell? What they do with the profits? The building?

What makes the store Christian is that the corporation that owns it puts that label on it. That store was not redeemed by Jesus' death. Neither is art.

That store is labelled Christian so as to distinguish what type of products they sell and to shoo away those that don't want to buy those items. How is it ministering to anyone outside the body? Jesus talked about the world seeing our good deeds and glorifying the Father; if our exclusive little club doesn't allow for outsiders, who's going to see those works?

Who says Christian bookstores are for Christians only? Do they have a sign on the door saying "no unsaved people allowed"? Likewise, who says "Christian bands" are for Christians only.  When Stryper freely accepted that label they sold more albums than most other heavy metal bands, and more than many of them combined.  Do you think only Christians bought those albums? Did MS and the boys throw Bibles from the stage stating "these are only for Christians"? Did they tell the non-Christians in the crowd, "this song is for the Christians only, so everyone else needs to leave"?

Art, like anything else, will be labeled. That is what people do ... they label things so they can identify them, and identify with them. It doesn't matter if you or I think it should or shouldn't happen, it just does. 

The whole premise of this thread is that Stryper was a ministry, and even called themselves one, but now Michael wants to say they aren't and never were. MS has changed, and to some of us not necessarily for the better.

BearDad wrote:

ishmael81 wrote:

BearDad wrote:

ishmael81 wrote:

That's what I was saying SA, sort of. Does anyone think the local Christian bookstore is serving two masters since they send me monthly sale bills?

Why is art treated so differently? God forbid (pun intended) artists that are Christians make money...

Um ... you ask why art is treated differently, and yet in your first sentence call the bookstore a "Christian" bookstore.  What makes the store Christian ... how it is run? Who runs it? What they sell? What they do with the profits? The building?

What makes the store Christian is that the corporation that owns it puts that label on it. That store was not redeemed by Jesus' death. Neither is art.

That store is labelled Christian so as to distinguish what type of products they sell and to shoo away those that don't want to buy those items. How is it ministering to anyone outside the body? Jesus talked about the world seeing our good deeds and glorifying the Father; if our exclusive little club doesn't allow for outsiders, who's going to see those works?

Who says Christian bookstores are for Christians only? Do they have a sign on the door saying "no unsaved people allowed"? Likewise, who says "Christian bands" are for Christians only.  When Stryper freely accepted that label they sold more albums than most other heavy metal bands, and more than many of them combined.  Do you think only Christians bought those albums? Did MS and the boys throw Bibles from the stage stating "these are only for Christians"? Did they tell the non-Christians in the crowd, "this song is for the Christians only, so everyone else needs to leave"?

Art, like anything else, will be labeled. That is what people do ... they label things so they can identify them, and identify with them. It doesn't matter if you or I think it should or shouldn't happen, it just does. 

The whole premise of this thread is that Stryper was a ministry, and even called themselves one, but now Michael wants to say they aren't and never were. MS has changed, and to some of us not necessarily for the better.

No one says "Christian bookstores are for Christians only" but my atheist friends don't shop there - and usually because they don't feel welcome.

I understand that music will be labelled but what was true about that label, or music in general, 30 years ago may not be true now. What's so bad about MS wanting to change the way their music is marketed? Ultimately, that's my question.

true, labels exist and we cant stop that but to be honest I dont see "Christian" as a genre...stryper, bloodgood, whitecross are 80s glam metal and that is their genre...I hate labels like "christian" or "satanic" or even "secular" ...I refuse to identity myself as a "Christian" because Christian is such a generic word that represent what is IMO alot of theological nonsense...I simply say I am a man who has a relationship with my God... I refuse to play in a "Christian" band but instead I play a few songs that have spiritual lyrics..I do not see myself as a minister nor do I want to be..I live my life and hold to my beliefs but allow others to believe what they want and in whom they want.... I tryed this ministering truth to others before at the CMR and realized that was a waste of time...I think Michael may feel the same way...
For the record I avoid Christian festivals, bookstores, radio station, Christian clothing & jewelry and I have decided to quit reading Christian books...When I hear about a "Christian" band my first thought is they probably sound like crap because most of them do...I am on this forum because I have friends here who I enjoy ..not because its Christian...I am also on boards with atheist and jews and I have Muslim friends and Gay friends and deist friends and even a few radical Christian friends but I believe in Jesus and Love my father in heaven...and maybe thats the way Michael see's it also...

I agree with beardad. MS has changed. He's going through some personal issues it seems. Christain bookstores aren't just for believers. Christain Metal and Rock isn't just for Christains. I will agree with SA that I myself don't like going into Christain bookstores because of what's being pushed theology wise.that I feel is spiritual trash. I will also agree that a lot of what's being played on CCM radio stations is fluff and not good in my opinion. I personally do not support christain artists who get arrogant and think of.themselves as Rock stars. I prefer humility on the stage. I prefer jesus getting the glory not a arrogant artist thinking they are all that I will take a pass on that. I also will personally stay away from bands who want to shy away from being labled a ministry while singing about Jesus. My personal preference. I will no longer support or reccomend MS or Stryper to people.

What I just can not understand is the reason why to say Stryper isn't a christian band. They've always been a christian band and always have been labeled that way. They always had the respect from both sides, christians and non-christians, because their music rocks! They have always released albums on secular Labels (Enigma, MTM Music, Frontiers Records), even with their straight forward in-your-face christian lyrics. So his statement just doesn't make sense to me. From both christian and secular point of view it doesn't make sense.

So maybe against my better judgement, I'll post this. I don't know that anyone else here listens to Emery or the badChristian podcast but this expresses some of my concerns/frustrations with the whole "Christian band" label.

http://badchristian.com/dont-good-christians/

ishmael81 wrote:

So maybe against my better judgement, I'll post this. I don't know that anyone else here listens to Emery or the badChristian podcast but this expresses some of my concerns/frustrations with the whole "Christian band" label.

http://badchristian.com/dont-good-christians/

I do listen to Emery and sometimes the BC podcast as well

ishmael81 wrote:

I understand your points but think about what you do for a living. I have no idea so let's pretend you're a salesman. Would your resume' say that you are a Christian salesman? Do you go to interviews and tell the hiring manager that? No.

I'm self employed in software development, but I often do tell my clients I'm a follower of Jesus. Though I agree that most people would not do that in an interview.

ishmael81 wrote:

I understand that music will be labelled but what was true about that label, or music in general, 30 years ago may not be true now. What's so bad about MS wanting to change the way their music is marketed? Ultimately, that's my question.

IMHO, it's too late. He's being a hypocrite unless the lyrics he writes are no longer Bible based. Not to say that HE isn't a Christian anymore but if he wants to write secular songs now then I can see his point. But in that case, he should not use Stryper's name.

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I'm self employed in software development, but I often do tell my clients I'm a follower of Jesus.

why? Do they ask? personally I wouldn't do business with you if you purposely went out of your way to tell me your religion without me asking...religion has no business in the work space, in the government or in the school system IMO..do you see your business as a ministry or business and if you see it as a ministry then i assume if a client didn't want to pay you wouldn't do whatever was needed to collect..after all, that would be honoring you and not God

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IMHO, it's too late. He's being a hypocrite unless the lyrics he writes are no longer Bible based. Not to say that HE isn't a Christian anymore but if he wants to write secular songs now then I can see his point. But in that case, he should not use Stryper's name.

but stryper has already done 2 albums that are pretty much secular albums...I think they should keep the stryper name no matter what the lyrics are...

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Some of us prefer to consume only Christian art though I admit I make some concessions on books/ movies.

why is it ok to make concessions for books/movies and not music?

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Boils down to the lyrics (and sometimes their ministry) for me. I did play some songs from secular bands with Christian lyrics on my show before. I'm OK with listening to Creed (I believe you mentioned them earlier) since while they/he have had some issues, most of the songs can easily relate to the Christian worldview.

so you are calling michael a hypocrite and saying he shouldn't keep the stryper name if they are not going to write "Christian" songs but you play songs by "secular" artist on your "christian radio show" ? To me (and I am sure only me) that seems kinda hypocritical...when I listen to old stryper many of the songs could be constrewed as Christian (singing about God) but could have very easily been seen as singing about/to a woman...some of the lyrics could have easily fit onto a Dokken album or a Poison album or even a Motley Crue album...

Dear God, just make it stop.

I understand the desire to not be labeled, but as I said earlier people are going to do it. Something I find interesting is that even within the labeling of "Christian" this or that there is more labeling. For example, Tim Gaines put a different take on MS's statement by saying "we are not a CCM band"

My daughter goes on mission trips to Mexico with people from our church. While on the bus going and coming home they have assigned "sheriffs," other kids that will fine people $1, or some other minor fine, for various infractions, one of which is listening to secular music. I asked my daughter what was secular, and she said anything "not Christian." Of course, when asked "what's Christian" she gave answers like Newsboys, TobyMac, etc. I wonder, though, what these "sheriffs" or the other adults would do if I went along and listened to Demon Hunter, Mortification, or even one they might know, such as Skillet or Stryper. Or what if I took Rob Rock's "Holy Hell" on CD ... certainly that's not "Christian" because it has a dragon on the front and no doubt is stating that hell is holy! (  ). I would not be surprised if they told me I couldn't listen to it because they didn't know it as being a "Christian band."

My point is this: even among Believers there are those that only see CCM as being "Chrstian Music"; they seem to have the mindset that "if it's not played on the Christian radio station then it can't be Christian."

I'm getting so sick of Michael Sweet and Stryper. Label or no label. Enough already. I will do business with you if y tell me your a follower. The Gospel in my opinion should be proclaimed everywhere. In the workplace and in gov. He did tell us to go out into the world and spread the Gospel. The Great Commission. Anyway I'm tired of Stryper and MS and have no plans on supporting any longer.

Savage Amusement wrote:

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I'm self employed in software development, but I often do tell my clients I'm a follower of Jesus.

why? Do they ask? personally I wouldn't do business with you if you purposely went out of your way to tell me your religion without me asking...religion has no business in the work space, in the government or in the school system IMO

I disagree. Don't recall God telling us to keep our mouths shut.

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Some of us prefer to consume only Christian art though I admit I make some concessions on books/ movies.

why is it ok to make concessions for books/movies and not music?

Because I take music far more seriously than other media on it's impact on my life.

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Boils down to the lyrics (and sometimes their ministry) for me. I did play some songs from secular bands with Christian lyrics on my show before.

so you are calling michael a hypocrite and saying he shouldn't keep the stryper name if they are not going to write "Christian" songs but you play songs by "secular" artist on your "christian radio show" ? To me (and I am sure only me) that seems kinda hypocritical

As I said, the lyrics are all that matter. If Slayer wants to write a song with Christian lyrics, that's fine with me. I always warned folks that may be listening that it wasn't a Christian group.

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If Slayer wants to write a song with Christian lyrics, that's fine with me. I always warned folks that may be listening that it wasn't a Christian group.

so essentially you may have turned someone onto a band like slayer (even though you warned them)    ..... right on!

Wait, Slayer isn't a Christian band??

Hmm.  Almost the first words out of Michael's mouth in this clip is "we wanted to be a light in the dark." Sure, that's not calling Stryper a "Christian band," but isn't it more-or-less stating they wanted to be a ministry?  



I have to add, though, that this clip and the other parts are an awesome interview and peek into Michael's life back during the MBP days.

I honestly never thought this thread would last this long.

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Wait, Slayer isn't a Christian band??

nope..they are a band with a Christian in it...they are spreading their Gospel south of heaven as we speak..and what is their Gospel? Show No Mercy!! And it appears that religious folks are taking it to heart and running with it...why right here on this thread and the reation to GX project are great examples

I hope the new album resembles Against the Law lyrically..great album!!!

Their Gospel is Show No Mercy? That doesn't sound like the True Gospel at all.