I am done with Barren Cross

In case anyone did not know Mike Lee is back in Barren Cross. I have read his website and his Facebook and am disgusted to find out he believes in a works based salvation and says most of us are all on our way to Hell. He claims to follow some (un-named) prophet of God
and is preaching a false message. He also is claiming that bipolar disorder as well as all mental illness (including epilepsy) is of demonic origin and that mental health does not exist. He claims anyone with any of these diseases is demon possessed and is on their way to Hell.
I have pitched my Barren Cross cd's in the dumpster and will no longer support this band.

If there is any validity in these claims about Lee, then my interpretations of his past writings were correct. I've always had an eyebrow raised regarding some of his beliefs - but kept them to myself in case I was just mis-interpreting them. I did the same with Bride, until I read enough to make an informed decision.

All I can say is, Bummer. Exclusivism is a dangerous state to be in.

Dude! You shoulda sold me those CDs!

brokentulsa wrote:

... He claims to follow some (un-named) prophet of God
and is preaching a false message. ....

Huh? Really?

Why worry about it???? None of those ideas are on ANY of BC's albums....

Seems like a bunch a 'hype' about nothing..... If a NEW BC album comes out with that message that I'd worry.... but until then.....

Honestly everybody is so UP IN arms about Mike's statements.... Sure they're incorrect but do we have to rehash it all to death.....

I've read this stuff over and over and over...... I'm going to let the Lord deal with him and pull him through this spiritual fog....

I have enough logs in my own eyes to deal with that to publicly call someone out is quite ridiculous....

I am still not sure that Mike is proposing a works-based salvation. I read the matter as he believe in the need to do good works because of his salvation, not to earn his salvation. I believe that this is what James tells us to do when he deals with the whole issue of faith and deeds. We do what God calls us to do because of our relationship, not that we can build that relationship by what we do.

Let me explain a bit further. I think, I can't say with certainty, that Mike had a transformaition in his life and in his heart a couple of years ago and he still cannot clearly articulate his newfound belief in living an outwardly expressive life of this inward transition. Jesus said that if we loved Him, we would obey His teachings. That means an outward action in a lot of cases, i.e. doing rather than simply believing. Scripture says that by our fruits you shall know them, again the outward appearance of how one lives seems to be indicitive of what is happening in the heart of an individual. This is where the situation becomes very difficult to explain to a lot of people. The outward acts/fruits can be selfishly driven rather than Godly, and in those cases I believe the individuals ARE trying to earn their right to call themselves children of God. However, if the heart is right with God, I firmly believe our outward actions, and the lives we live, will reflect our relationship to God.

Now then, I can tell you that when I became a Christian at the ripe age of 17, I had a zeal much like what Mike seems to be showing. I believed that if I did all the right things, and refrained from all the wrong things (as defined by our church), then I was living the life I was supposed to live. As I grew in my faith, I began to worry less about following the church's rules and grew more to following the heart of Jesus. My life has been transformed, not by the rules I followed, but by Jesus Christ. It was extremely difficult to explain why I did/didn't do things when I was younger and typically fell to "It's agains the rules of my church". However, as I have matured, I have grown to realize I do what I do, and abstain where I abstain, not because of my church but because I do not believe Jesus would have me live any differently. In reality it is a simple matter for me to live, but it is far more difficult to explain in a consice manner, especially in a non-personal post on the internet.

The comparison to Bride is far different. Dale has admitted to believing and proposing a teaching that the orthodox Christians have rejected for centuries as heresy. Mike, while my interpretation of what he is saying may be wrong, seems to be trying to draw closer to the heart of God through the life he has chosen to live. I could totally mis-understand what he is saying, but I chose to give him some latitude still because I know how difficult it was for me to firmly espouse my beliefs and then be able to share them without coming across as legalistic or works-oriented in my stance.

I believe I am saved by Grace, and I choose to live a life of submission because I believe this is God desires. I do my best to allow the Almighty to use me as a vessel to accomplish what He has in store for me. I do not earn my place in His Kingdom, but I work for Him because I have a place in His Kingdom.

Now if that's what Mike is trying to communicate, I have no problem with it. I can't site anything this moment, so I won't give my 2 cents, but I read some stuff he wrote a couple years ago that I didn't agree with. If I come across it, I'll drop my 2 cents here.

Quote :

I have enough logs in my own eyes to deal with

Ditto !

I do not wish to turn this thread into a theological debate. I had enough of that at the Christian Metal Realm. That being said everyone most certainly may believe as they want including Mike Lee but I do not have to accept or support an artist I have theological differences with. (anyone who wants to go that route may pm me and we can discuss it) I have a huge problem with any artist, Christian or Secular, who claims mental illness as demonic and condemns those who suffer from it to Hell. My wife is bipolar and is one of the most awesome Christians I know. Here is mikes exact comment from his facebook....

"I have been told by a true prophet of God that Bipolar is in fact
demonic. Just like epilepsy; remember the child in the New Testament
who had epilepsy? Jesus cast those demons out of him, and he was healed."
" I believe it is in fact demonic, and NOT a medical condition, just like epilepsy is demonic and not a medical condition either."
"the reason you are asking me
this question in the first place is because this is the type of junk and
false doctrine that was taught to you and I growing up in many of the
apostate churches today; that you can sin your brains out,
have demons, idols, and whatever call yourself a "Christian" and still
get to Heaven, just because you "raised your hand" one day, and said
some kind of "sinners prayer" (nowhere in the Bible by the way) repeated
after some preacher that probably didn't know God either. NO. People
with demons DON'T go to Heaven! "Light has no fellowship with darkness."
You can't have Jesus and idols either; Jesus is not stupid; He will not
share His temple (your body) with demons, idols, or sin period. People
don't know these things, simply because they don't read their Bibles,
OR.... they prefer to believe their pastor over Jesus Christ, and
disregard everything Jesus had to say."

In my opinion Mike is a complete liar on his views concerning Mental Health and Salvation. By allowing him to come back in the band, in my eyes, means the other members support his position. I myself am a musician and I would never play in a band if I did not agree with the ideas, theology's and positions of my fellow members. This is all my opinion and choice. It has caused me to start looking into the thoughts of other Christian artist. I have ditched bride over Dales false theology and also precious death over their Calvinist ideas. Of course these are my decisions and for me only. We each have to make up our own minds.

Again, if Mike is trying to communicate what Tim said, that makes sense.

Bt, What you quoted above is DEFINITELY a false teaching and Mike is seriously erroneous when it comes to Bipolar and Epilepsy. He is an ignorant man speaking of things he knows nothing about. I've been in the medical field for 25 years and understand the physiochemical differences in the BODY that affects people physically and causes these problems, among 100s of other issues.

He is definitely incorrect in his belief and is adopting a similar belief that many of the "faith healers" hold.

As far as re-hashing, I don't feel it necessary to get into all that. We should pray that he comes to his senses. As far as what we listen to and support, I think it's up to the individual. I personally do not support any albums with lyrics opposed to Biblical teaching.

I too believe he is wrong on the mental health issue, but that being said I also known others who have/hold the same conviction. I don't think he is a heretic for his belief, but I do disagree with him entirely. I have known a young woman for nearly 20 years who has epileptic seizures, and has had since she was in her mid-teens. She has prayed for years that God would heal her, and she has trusted Him through everything. I don't believe she ever did anything to bring it upon herself (i.e. drug or alcohol abuse), and I certainly don't think she has a demonic possession.

Brokentulsa, I truly sympathize with your wife's condition. I have family who are also bi-polar, including a cousin who is in federal prison because of the choices he made because he refused medication for his condition. Because of his actions, a young woman died, and he will spend the next 20 or so years in federal prison because of that situation (way more involved than that one instance BTW). However, God changed his heart and his life and he now spends his time studying the Word and has led many other convicts to Jesus Christ as a result.

I did not mean to imply that I wholeheartedly support Mike and his various beliefs, I was merely trying to give him the benefit of the doubt concerning his statements about living the life of a transformed individual. I believe that Mike may have fallen in with those teaching that demons live under every rock, and cause every bad thing that happens. I believe demonic forces are all around us, but I also believe in the frailty of the human condition, physical, spiritual,and mental. I believe it is through that frailty that God works many times, because it allows him to reach other broken and frail individuals. To that end, I believe He allows some Christians to remain afflictected by their health issues, mental as well as physical, but reaches out to unbelievers through those that He allows to retain their conditions (speaking of believers here).

I apologize if my previous statement gave any endorsement of Mike and anything he is teaching/sharing. I was simply trying to emphasize the importance of living a life that indicates we have been transformed, for it is in that transformation that others see the difference that Jesus Christ can make in their own lives.

I don't see Mike's remarks so much as false doctrine as it is just ignorance. While I do believe that SOME mental illness could be attributed to demonic possession, there are too many conditions (like bipolar, autism, etc.) that respond very well to meds and therapy. I think that before I throw Barren Cross under the bus that I want to see where their lyrics point when/if they do a new album. If Mike truly has become a new Christian, then this mindset may change with maturity. I believed very much like him about mental illness when I first became a believer. However, I grew out of that pretty quickly when I spend time in a psych center for depression.

I had a conversation like this just today with my boss at work. While I do believe that some instances of mental disease can be/is caused by demons, sometimes it is a mental condition or a chemical imbalance. It might be a combination of all three. Every case is different.

I saw Mike both solo and with BC in '07 at Calistone. He gave a couple of expositions of his views on salvation and his own walk with Christ, and I talked with him personally at his merch table. My impression is he is a good guy, a great performer, and a sincere follower of Jesus Christ. Seriously, you should hear him. He's true blue. He is also very odd.

I could cite numerous examples to demonstrate that oddness, but I don't think that's required. He is an odd guy on a personal level. But IMO, he's a Christian for sure. His theology is off, but it's not a salvation issue. I'd buy an album by a hardcore Calvinist too. Not because I agree with Calvinism, but because I think it's suborthodox, not heretical.

So if BC puts out an album with Mike, I'll buy it. I don't have to agree with him on every doctrinal point to appreciate his vocals.

You guys should meet Jim LaVerde as well. I have. He's a true blue guy and a theology hawk. He won't play on an album that has any heretical doctrine. He just won't. I don't think he'd even allow anything suborthodox. I'm fine with BC.

So Dale says everyone gets to go to heaven and Mike says no one gets to go to heaven....

JUST KIDDING

Quote :

I could cite numerous examples to demonstrate that oddness, but I don't think that's required. He is
an odd guy on a personal level. But IMO, he's a Christian for sure. His
theology is off, but it's not a salvation issue. I'd buy an album by a
hardcore Calvinist too. Not because I agree with Calvinism, but because I
think it's suborthodox, not heretical.

For a second I thought you said you'd even buy a hardcore album by a calvinist...

silentthunder89 wrote:

For a second I thought you said you'd even buy a hardcore album by a calvinist...

That would be unlikely, but not because of theology...

nazpastor wrote:

I too believe he is wrong on the mental health issue, but that being said I also known others who have/hold the same conviction. I don't think he is a heretic for his belief, but I do disagree with him entirely.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Tall T wrote:

,,,and I talked with him personally at his merch table. My impression is he is a good guy, a great performer, and a sincere follower of Jesus Christ. Seriously, you should hear him. He's true blue. He is also very odd.

I have read some of his writings, and listened to him speak. I would have to agree that he does seem like a rather odd guy (not bad, just odd). He also seems very "driven" (pun fully intended) in everything he does. Seems to me those types can go a little over the deep end (even into serious legalism) unless they can reign themselves in (was guilty of it myself there a little not that long ago).

Brokentulsa wrote:

... but I do not have to accept or support an artist I have theological differences with. (anyone who wants to go that route may pm me and we can discuss it) I have a huge problem with any artist, Christian or Secular, who claims mental illness as demonic and condemns those who suffer from it to Hell. My wife is bipolar and is one of the most awesome Christians I know.

I completely support you here. I don't think you should have to accept or support anything Mike is involved with if you bothers you on a theological or even just personal level.

While I don't share the same sentiment as Mike Lee, I personally won't let affect me listening to Barren Cross. Just because his views and maybe his belief is a little bit different then mine, I get let bygones be bygones. If Barren Cross was to release a new CD I would get it in a heartbeat. It's kinda like Bride. Yes, I know Dale's UV belief now and it shows in some of his facebook post. But again if they released a new CD I would get it because I am a fan of Bride and enjoy thier music. By listening to Bride it is in no way going to convert me to believe in the way Dale believes. At the end of the day we both believe in the same God but just differences in salvation and things. Mike is certainly entitled to his opinion, and I have no problem with someone giving up on them because of it. I would venture to guess that he is probably the only one of the 4 that has that belief. I guess I've always looked at it like this and it may very well be a poor comparison, but I have a problem with the Catholic faith and some of their doctrine. But if I liked a band and found out they were all Catholic, it wouldn't prevent me from not getting their music. Just my 2 cents.

My son has had epilepsy and we have lived with the horror it has caused for over 5 years now. My son loves the Lord and we can see God's work in his heart as he repents for his actions and works to know God better. For Mike Lee to suggest that my son is/was demon-possessed is silly and stupid. I'll admit, too, that it makes me quite angry.

I would have a hard time listening to new BC material knowing that this is what is in Mike's heart. Maybe I could, maybe I couldn't...I don't know. I doubt it will matter as I believe this "BC reunion" talk is just talk and like so many other classic bands, it will never develop into a new album.

Follower of Jesus wrote:

.... I doubt it will matter as I believe this "BC reunion" talk is just talk and like so many other classic bands, it will never develop into a new album.

Based on what has been said (and not done) from the Barren Cross camp over the last few years, that might be a pretty safe bet.

BT, it is a free country and you can certainly choose to listen to or not listen to whoever you want and I don't think anyone here is saying you should keep listening to BC.

Gonna leave theology out of this...

But I do want to say that I think "liar" is the wrong word to use as it relates to Mike and mental illness. Lying implies that he knows the truth but is choosing to say something false instead. I think, like others have said, he believes the falsehoods he is saying are true.