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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Product versus person   Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:36 am

First off, I'm not trying to stir up some kid of argument - I just want some honest feedback from some of you guys.

Where do you cut off the product from the person? What I mean is this - If we're talking music, books or movies created by non-Christians, I don't think much about the people who created it in terms of their personal life. But with those things created by Christians, I struggle to separate the art from the person.

I've been looking for a devotional to do with my son (age 7). I thought I had found a good one until I Googled the author and found out that several people had accused leaders in the church he pastors of sexual abuse - and he covered it up.

My struggle here is that this guy wrote two books telling me (or parents) how to teach their kids about Jesus and he did this very crappy thing. Is the book still trustworthy? Should I even buy it and support his ministry? I have some thoughts but wanted to hear what you guys think.
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BearDad



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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:48 pm

I know of one guy that co-wrote a bunch of God-related poems and worship tunes, but he himself did a lot of things that some might consider extremely ungodly, including taking another guy's wife for his own after arranging to have the other guy killed. You might have heard of him; his name was David.

Not trying to be trite, just pointing out a Biblical correlation where the author's own lifestyle may not match his product. 

Amy Grant left her husband for another man. I think that was 100% wrong, no matter how she justified it. However, I still enjoy her music, including all the old, undoubtedly Christian songs as well as her new worship tunes.

Not quite the same? I don't know. I guess I'm just saying judge the product, not the producer, unless you know for sure that the product reflects the producer's sins. Also, did he really cover up those accusations, or is that just Internet "news," like all the stuff, some of it true and some of it not so much, that was (and is) being said about Clinton and Trump. Have you read either of this guy's books yet, so that you are in a position to discern their value and integrity? If not, then maybe take it a day at a time, but make sure you scan through each devotional before you go through it with your son, something you probably should do no matter the source, even the Bible.

Just my two cents ... only worth about half that.


Last edited by BearDad on Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:26 pm

Quote :
Actually worth more than that. I didn't think you were trying to be trite and honestly, I was thinking along the same lines. I feel like your one comment confirmed what I was thinking about the issue.
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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:34 pm

I've found that ignorance is bliss.  When it comes to Christian musicians and authors, I'd rather not know about their personal lives. I've learned some great Truths and enjoy some excellent music from people who've done some horrible things.
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topshot rhit



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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:54 pm

Ray Boltz may be a good example. Do you stop listening to everything he put out before coming out? I could see choosing to not support him after that on principle. Now if he repented as David did, that would be another story. Christians are only human after all.

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BearDad



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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:12 am

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:
I've found that ignorance is bliss.  When it comes to Christian musicians and authors, I'd rather not know about their personal lives. I've learned some great Truths and enjoy some excellent music from people who've done some horrible things.

This holds for me with regular celebrities as well. I'd rather not know that some great actor whose movies I really enjoy supports Hillary and the LGBT, etc. That's why I never watch those entertainment shows or read the magazines (People, E!, etc.).
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BearDad



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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:14 am

topshot rhit wrote:
Ray Boltz may be a good example. Do you stop listening to everything he put out before coming out? I could see choosing to not support him after that on principle. Now if he repented as David did, that would be another story. Christians are only human after all.

He's a very good example, although I have to confess that I have been unable to listen to him since. Same for King's X. It shouldn't bother me and I should practice what I preach, but I just haven't been able to turn that corner with those folks.
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alldatndensum
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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:24 am

It is difficult when someone who's art has inspired you takes a weird turn or falls into unrepented sin.  I used to love Jennifer Knapp but would not support her new stuff.  Even though she has started singing rather loosely about Jesus again, she also promotes her homosexual lifestyle.

Christian are human.  Yes, we put musicians, authors, actors, etc. on a pedestal and probably shouldn't.  When we feel the pain of betrayal when they fall, sometimes we just don't deal with it well.  It isn't right that we completely turn away, but it is to be expected because we often cannot fathom why they fell.  It hurts their family's and their fans.  This is why as CHRISTIANS we all need to stay plugged into Jesus so that sin doesn't overtake us.  It destroys those that we've ministered to as well.

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messiaen77

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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:52 am

My thoughts on this are too jumbled to be of any use.  I guess my bottom line is to go with your gut:  If it feels wrong, don't do it.
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:08 am

messiaen77 wrote:
My thoughts on this are too jumbled to be of any use.  I guess my bottom line is to go with your gut:  If it feels wrong, don't do it.


Lol... Thanks for the help... What a Face
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BearDad



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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:28 am

messiaen77 wrote:
If it feels wrong, don't do it.

Careful, though. The direct opposite is "if it feels right, do it." And we know that's not necessarily true. Smile
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messiaen77

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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:02 pm

ishmael81 wrote:
messiaen77 wrote:
My thoughts on this are too jumbled to be of any use.  I guess my bottom line is to go with your gut:  If it feels wrong, don't do it.


Lol... Thanks for the help... What a Face
Ok, my brain is working better tonight.


I don't have a hard and fast rule for this.  There are some cases where I have no problem separating the product from the producer.  For example, I have no trouble listening to music by Richard Wagner or Austrian Death Machine even though I have real problems with some of the things those guys did.  At the same time, I ditched every Mike Warnke book and recording after he was exposed as a fraud.

I think I know of whom you are speaking, and if I am correct, there are a number of red flags that tell me I don't want to support this person by purchasing any of his books.  Beyond the allegations of covering up sexual abuse, there are signs of spiritual abuse there.
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:05 am

messiaen77 wrote:
ishmael81 wrote:
messiaen77 wrote:
My thoughts on this are too jumbled to be of any use.  I guess my bottom line is to go with your gut:  If it feels wrong, don't do it.


Lol... Thanks for the help... What a Face
Ok, my brain is working better tonight.


I don't have a hard and fast rule for this.  There are some cases where I have no problem separating the product from the producer.  For example, I have no trouble listening to music by Richard Wagner or Austrian Death Machine even though I have real problems with some of the things those guys did.  At the same time, I ditched every Mike Warnke book and recording after he was exposed as a fraud.

I think I know of whom you are speaking, and if I am correct, there are a number of red flags that tell me I don't want to support this person by purchasing any of his books.  Beyond the allegations of covering up sexual abuse, there are signs of spiritual abuse there.

Definitely make sense. I'm talking about Marty Machowski, whose church is part of the Sovereign Grace Ministry. He wrote two parent/kid devotionals that have gotten awesome reviews. But like I said, it's hard to separate this guy telling me how to raise and teach my kid when he's been accused of this.
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Samson

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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:05 pm

There are a few Christian metal bands I quit listening to once I saw how some of them acted like total d-bags on message boards.
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Staybrite

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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:59 pm

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:
I've found that ignorance is bliss.  When it comes to Christian musicians and authors, I'd rather not know about their personal lives. I've learned some great Truths and enjoy some excellent music from people who've done some horrible things.

This exactly.
I have a hard time separating peoples actions from their art/ministry etc.
I remember watching Fiona Apple on MTV unplugged (or some show like that) years and years ago.  I used to kind of dig her music but she started ranting about some dumb political/social justice issue that was her pet thing...and after a few minutes I just starting yelling at the television "Shut up and sing"...after that I completely ignored any music she created.

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messiaen77

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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:14 am

ishmael81 wrote:
messiaen77 wrote:
ishmael81 wrote:
messiaen77 wrote:
My thoughts on this are too jumbled to be of any use.  I guess my bottom line is to go with your gut:  If it feels wrong, don't do it.


Lol... Thanks for the help... What a Face
Ok, my brain is working better tonight.


I don't have a hard and fast rule for this.  There are some cases where I have no problem separating the product from the producer.  For example, I have no trouble listening to music by Richard Wagner or Austrian Death Machine even though I have real problems with some of the things those guys did.  At the same time, I ditched every Mike Warnke book and recording after he was exposed as a fraud.

I think I know of whom you are speaking, and if I am correct, there are a number of red flags that tell me I don't want to support this person by purchasing any of his books.  Beyond the allegations of covering up sexual abuse, there are signs of spiritual abuse there.

Definitely make sense. I'm talking about Marty Machowski, whose church is part of the Sovereign Grace Ministry. He wrote two parent/kid devotionals that have gotten awesome reviews. But like I said, it's hard to separate this guy telling me how to raise and teach my kid when he's been accused of this.
I had the right ministry group, just the wrong guy.
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:21 am

Staybrite wrote:
Guilty/Forgiven wrote:
I've found that ignorance is bliss.  When it comes to Christian musicians and authors, I'd rather not know about their personal lives. I've learned some great Truths and enjoy some excellent music from people who've done some horrible things.

This exactly.
I have a hard time separating peoples actions from their art/ministry etc.
I remember watching Fiona Apple on MTV unplugged (or some show like that) years and years ago.  I used to kind of dig her music but she started ranting about some dumb political/social justice issue that was her pet thing...and after a few minutes I just starting yelling at the television "Shut up and sing"...after that I completely ignored any music she created.

lol!
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:22 am

messiaen77 wrote:
ishmael81 wrote:
messiaen77 wrote:
ishmael81 wrote:
messiaen77 wrote:
My thoughts on this are too jumbled to be of any use.  I guess my bottom line is to go with your gut:  If it feels wrong, don't do it.


Lol... Thanks for the help... What a Face
Ok, my brain is working better tonight.


I don't have a hard and fast rule for this.  There are some cases where I have no problem separating the product from the producer.  For example, I have no trouble listening to music by Richard Wagner or Austrian Death Machine even though I have real problems with some of the things those guys did.  At the same time, I ditched every Mike Warnke book and recording after he was exposed as a fraud.

I think I know of whom you are speaking, and if I am correct, there are a number of red flags that tell me I don't want to support this person by purchasing any of his books.  Beyond the allegations of covering up sexual abuse, there are signs of spiritual abuse there.

Definitely make sense. I'm talking about Marty Machowski, whose church is part of the Sovereign Grace Ministry. He wrote two parent/kid devotionals that have gotten awesome reviews. But like I said, it's hard to separate this guy telling me how to raise and teach my kid when he's been accused of this.
I had the right ministry group, just the wrong guy.


Which may say something about the group, you know?
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messiaen77

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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:39 pm

My thought exactly.  Particularly the "spiritual abuse" angle.
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Product versus person   Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:46 pm

Yep. Luckily I found a couple other devotionals I want to try - including one that's aimed at boys and the devotions are only about 3 minutes. Perfect for a kid with ADHD.
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