The Ramblings of a Hardened Heart?

So I thought I'd bounce this thought off all youz -
 
I see a lot of marriages that were directly or indirectly FORCED due to the whole "you shouldn't sleep with that person unless you're married" thing. Now granted, if you're both believers, that's great ! Get married based on that Scriptural principle. But what I've seen in my 44 years has been so many marriages forced on couples due to "the right thing to do" - is it ? Is it the "right thing to do" if one or both aren't believers and don't even adhere to Scriptural standards ?
I first seen this when I was 15 and my brother got a lot of flack from my Mom cuz he was living with his girlfriend at the time. (I love my mother like no one else, but unfortunately I have to include her in this example)- My bro's girlfriend's mom was catholic, so they got it from both sides until they gave in and got married. 2 years later, the divorce.
Same went with me and a gal who moved in with me - not just my mother, but my own convictions pushed me into the decision and I married her (an unbeliever). 2 years later, the divorce.
I'm not sure what the push was behind my daughter getting married, could've been my wife - she's strong on the issue as well. But he was never a believer and my daughter was and is totally on the liberal fence. 2 years later, the divorce.
These are only 3 examples. I have many more. My point I'm attempting to make is, should kids or even adults for that matter be forced into marriage cuz they're living together, or just cuz they want to be intimate - shouldn't we as the church stay out of their business and just let them "live together"... "in sin". I mean what business is it of ours is it to tell, inspire, or intimidate a couple into getting married so they don't fornicate ?? I see a Scripture that says God "hates divorce" - I don't really see a Scripture that says God "hates sex before marriage"... I realize He implies He hates it as it is considered a sin.
 
I'm just wondering where our priorities are on this. I feel strongly that if a couple fall in love and are attending church and strong in their walks with Christ together, should they desire to spend their lives with each other (not just so they can get into each other's pants), then by all means ! Get married. Isn't this the way it was meant to be ?
I'm starting to feel strongly also that if a couple aren't believers or are just casual believers (you know what I mean, kids grow up believing what their parents believe), I really don't think marriage should be encouraged - maybe believing parents and/or friends should just let them live together and not push any such thoughts on them.
 
Am I wrong ? What's your take on this ?

Getting married so you can have sex or please your parents is never a good reason.

Agreed.
 
But on a deeper level, perhaps a subconscious level, some decide to get married based on guilt...
 
maybe they totally feel love and think it's totally the right person for them, but instead of waiting for a couple years to grow in friendship and faith (or even in the case of non-believers or jack-believers, wait a couple years to make sure this is indeed the person they can live with and grow with for the rest of this life) to grow in understanding of what marriage is and what it entails - that it's more giving than getting, more than just fuzzy feelings, but rather mostly work and NOT feelings, etc..
 
Maybe a couple gets married cuz on that subconscious level they were raised with it being the "right thing" to do if you're fooling around with that person. Face it, the church and pew sitters are strong teachers of the "no sex before marriage" thing (which is great) - but does it apply to all ?
 
I'm having a little difficulty putting my thoughts down here, (which is why I titled the thread the way I did) - but would it be better to simply say as believers that this is what we believe, but if you're not 100% sold out to Jesus and KNOW you're born again, then by all means, live together, do what you want - just cuz I'm your Dad and I'm a firm believer, doesn't mean I want you to get married so you don't feel guilt (or do right by me)??? Right ? Wrong ? I honestly don't know anymore... with so many divorces, I'm just wondering if we in the church should stick to just the GOSPEL and not the rules when applied to friends or family's choices.

I agree with Xid.  Well, I believe it's God's intent that sex is to be between a married man and woman.  I'm stuck with regrets that - even though I know God has forgiven me - still affect me.  I wouldn't wish that upon anyone else and would encourage anyone to stay "pure" and wait until marriage.  It's the same thing as porn, homosexuality, or the like in my opinion.  These things are not what God intended us to partake in and they affect us much more than society/culture would admit to.  For this reason, I think it's important to encourage people to not "live in sin" in that sense because otherwise you'd be justifying that sin.  That is, if they claim to be believers.  We're called to a higher standard and should help each other attain that.  So as long as it's out of love, I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to encourage other Christians to refrain from sin!

I totally agree with you on the Christian side of things. IF, big if, the couple are believers, indeed marry - Paul himself said do not live with passions, get married and get busy (ok that's paraphrased)... but I'm speaking more of the non-believer.
 
My examples again: My brother wasn't a strong believer, and his GF was not a practicing catholic. But parents on both sides who raised them with these strong beliefs, instilled in them this wonderful great idea that they should be married before taking the relationship to that phase. I remember hearing my Mom telling him "well again Rick, I don't like the idea of you guys living together... you know that's living in sin and God doesn't like that.. I wish you were married" etc.
 
Would it have been better for them to recognize they're not living by the Book, but rather by family members who live by the Book... and to continue living together regardless of what family or their upbringing guilts them into ? And maybe if they come to faith, repent, then get married and walk with Christ ?
 
I just feel too many are getting married due to their upbringing or family members guilting them into it... am I totally out of line on this ? or do I have an argument ?

There is likely another side to this. Some get pregnant and then feel they have to get married. One guy that worked at my store used to sleep around(he was known for it) and then got a girl knocked up. She was catholic and they got married. I don't know if her parents had much say in the matter but that is where they went. Afterwards they did not get along at all. I don't think it took 2 years for them to get divorced.

The thing is that sin is sin is sin regardless if you believe or not.  If people are allowing themselves to be guilted into doing anything then they are doing it for the wrong reason.

On the other hand, as believers we can speak the truth without being condemning as a lot of parents don't seem to be able to do.

Definitely agree that some parents can be condemning in their instructing the kids.
But in my example, it seems my Mother had part in guilting him to marriage, though never in a condemning way. As a witness to the whole thing, she was never condemning (matter of fact, she doesn't have a condemning bone in her body - she's what I wish I could be as an example of love and selflessness) - but she did give strong advice to him in a loving tone that it's not good they live together in sin, and should be married if they're gonna live together.

I'm just saying I don't know if that's for us believers to push on anyone, lovingly or condemningly. Again, if someone's a believer, by all means, we have an obligation to lead them in the right path - but I've seen marriages, beit one believer and one non, or both non-believers who were involved in the sin of sleeping together, guilted into marriage. A friend of mine met this gal, and they had a whirlwind romance. His mom was a strong believer and as a result he felt the "right thing to do" by his mom and God was to marry her. She didn't give him but a few months before she was interested in other guys.

My question is, did they do "the right thing" ? I mean, it's sin to fornicate as they were doing, but then they upped the ante by including something God HATES - divorce. Perhaps none of this applies to non-believers at all. I realize sin is sin, but it's all fluid until one comes to Christ. Someone who's lost is lost, no matter what sins they commit or how bad (this is in God's eyes not ours) and it breaks God's heart that they're lost, but does doing "the right thing" according to Biblical rules make God happier with their situation ? Idk, cuz I ain't God. These are just thoughts thunk outloud.

Like most have said I think the bible makes it relatively clear that Christians are supposed to get married before sex.  I don't think that standard should be applied to non-Christians.  And I also think young Christians should not rush into marriage in some sort of sprint to the conjugal bed.  Obviously society has accepted that sex outside of marriage is now the norm (albeit a destructive norm).  

But in my experience the couples I know who have divorced did not get married just so they could boff each other (most of them were "sampling the goods" with great vigor before getting anywhere close to their vows).  It's been my experience that the majority of failed marriages have occurred because people (at least in this country) do not want to work at something for very long at all if it is difficult.  And for those who have been married for more than a few months can attest, marriage is hard.  And for those who have been married for some time will also attest, you have to work to keep your marriage healthy (marriage is not a spectator sport).  So many people get wrapped up in their own wants and desires and forget to "give of themselves freely" to their spouse.  (but I'm digressing into a whole other topic).

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:

Definitely agree that some parents can be condemning in their instructing the kids.
But in my example, it seems my Mother had part in guilting him to marriage, though never in a condemning way. As a witness to the whole thing, she was never condemning (matter of fact, she doesn't have a condemning bone in her body - she's what I wish I could be as an example of love and selflessness) - but she did give strong advice to him in a loving tone that it's not good they live together in sin, and should be married if they're gonna live together.

Do you think it would have been better if your mother encouraged you to "sin for a season" and sow your wild oats while you were young?

It's God's standard that you are married before sex, believer or not. Now, I don't expect nonbelievers to follow this but it's still His standard. The biggest problem as I see it is people do buffet dating and marriage as they are self focused, marriage has lost it's place in our society.

Hmmm, good point Staybrite.
No.
I see your points now.
 
But should we encourage marriage for 2 that we know one or both are not in the Faith, just to "do the right thing" - I know I keep quoting that saying, but my point is, if it's not a bond between 2 of God's own, then should we poke our noses in their business (as my mom did) and encourage marriage when it's something God commanded His children to do so that they would be joined to that person for life (as well as the illustration of Jesus and His Bride)... yet, so many who "feel" like they better get married instead of fornicating, end up in divorce. I don't have any statistics for either side, as there are divorces galore in and out of the church, so I couldn't say if my thoughts here hold any water.
I just wonder if pushing marriage on unbelievers just promotes more divorce ?

I'm not seeking "answers", per se, in this thread (although you've given me much to think about) - this is merely as the title says... rambling thoughts of someone struggling with a lot of issues right now.
If it's not a problem, I'll probably have part 2 and 3 and more of these "Ramblings.." - I have a lot of stuff I appreciate help thinking about - and you lucky peeps are the ones who get to enjoy or ignore my ramblings...  

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:

Hmmm, good point Staybrite.
No.
I see your points now.
 
But should we encourage marriage for 2 that we know one or both are not in the Faith, just to "do the right thing" - I know I keep quoting that saying, but my point is, if it's not a bond between 2 of God's own, then should we poke our noses in their business (as my mom did) and encourage marriage when it's something God commanded His children to do so that they would be joined to that person for life (as well as the illustration of Jesus and His Bride)... yet, so many who "feel" like they better get married instead of fornicating, end up in divorce. I don't have any statistics for either side, as there are divorces galore in and out of the church, so I couldn't say if my thoughts here hold any water.
I just wonder if pushing marriage on unbelievers just promotes more divorce ?

No.      I think that's the short answer!  The "right thing" is never right if they're not believers.  By that I mean that the only "right thing" is to follow God - so if they're not doing that, then what's the point?  As you stated, sin is sin.  To expand on that, sin distances us from God.  It also happens to negatively affect other people here on Earth too.  But perhaps you're focusing on that rather than sin's primary offense?  There is no "lesser evil" (i.e. sleeping together before marriage vs divorce) in the godly sense, IMO.

Paul, I believe, said that we should not be "unequally yoked". After all, one's faith is, or should be, the main factor in making decisions of all sorts. And if two people are disagreeing on many aspects of life - how to use time, how to use money, how to act and react - how can they live together?

If/when I get married, I will make sure my potential wife is ready to devote time and wealth to God.

I recently heard of a couple who were pledged to be married in May, but who recently had an opportunity to move in together… so they decided to be married this past week, so as to not give a bad witness.

Quote :

No.      I think that's the short answer!  The "right thing" is never right if they're not believers.  By that I mean that the only "right thing" is to follow God - so if they're not doing that, then what's the point?  As you stated, sin is sin.  To expand on that, sin distances us from God.  It also happens to negatively affect other people here on Earth too.  But perhaps you're focusing on that rather than sin's primary offense?  There is no "lesser evil" (i.e. sleeping together before marriage vs divorce) in the godly sense, IMO.

 
You're right, I am focusing on that first part of your thought.
Let me try to break it down to the absolute basic thought:
 
Saved: we are obligated to follow Christ and seek to follow His commands, not by our own might nor to obtain salvation, but cuz of salvation and cuz we want to please our Father out of a grateful heart. Therefore, we obey Him by joining in marriage so as to be in a Holy commitment with another child of God. If we divorce, we commit a sin against our mate and God (given specific circumstances)
 
Unsaved: they are obligated to nothing. They do not answer to God or His commands, even though there is an inward conscious all humans have to tend towards the Laws of God then end up breaking them.  God's laws and commands do not apply to them, even though we Christians want to impose many of our laws and rules on them (not saying that's a bad thing, it's just not something they're gonna respond to being in the world).  This is where I wonder why we are pushing marriage on a couple who are sleeping together when they don't belong to the Law maker in the first place.
 
Gosh, I don't know if I made this clearer or muddier...

[quote="Guilty/Forgiven"]

Quote :

 
Saved: we are obligated to follow Christ and seek to follow His commands, not by our own might nor to obtain salvation, but cuz of salvation and cuz we want to please our Father out of a grateful heart. Therefore, we obey Him by joining in marriage so as to be in a Holy commitment with another child of God. If we divorce, we commit a sin against our mate and God (given specific circumstances)
 
Unsaved: they are obligated to nothing. They do not answer to God or His commands, even though there is an inward conscious all humans have to tend towards the Laws of God then end up breaking them.  God's laws and commands do not apply to them, even though we Christians want to impose many of our laws and rules on them (not saying that's a bad thing, it's just not something they're gonna respond to being in the world).  This is where I wonder why we are pushing marriage on a couple who are sleeping together when they don't belong to the Law maker in the first place.
 

I'm pretty sure I would agree with that.

Quote :

Paul, I believe, said that we should not be "unequally yoked".

Correct. And I just think that we believers tend to "push" couples into getting married so they don't live in sin.... when they are in fact unequally matched Spiritually.
Thus, divorce.

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:

Quote :

Paul, I believe, said that we should not be "unequally yoked".

Correct. And I just think that we believers tend to "push" couples into getting married so they don't live in sin.... when they are in fact unequally matched Spiritually.
Thus, divorce.

And if they are not believers in the first place they are already living without the Jesus' covering for their sins...so frankly it doesn't really matter what they do, even if they weren't having sex outside of marriage they are still transgressors. Forcing them to get married won't save them from the sin of fornication, they will just be guilty of a multitude of other sins.

You, my friend, are on to my initial thoughts !!!

And it's not even so much "forcing" (however, some do force- I've seen it)... it's more the "guilt feeling" instilled by parents who bring the child up with this belief (which is not the parent's fault - it's merely well-intentioned parents raising their child with Scripture in hopes they come to faith) - then there are well-meaning believers like my Mother who wasn't forcing my brother to marry his GF, rather she was telling him that it's sinful to live that way and it breaks her heart to see them living that way (she assumed that all of us boys were saved, so those Biblical rules applied to us - however at the time, all 3 of us brothers were no where near saved).... so Idk, in that example I keep bringing up, Idk what the best case scenario would/should be.
I agree with Staybrite that a parent shouldn't just tell their kid to sow them oats and do whatever, in place of telling their kids the better way to go. But if that person never comes to faith, pushing them to get married isn't the best thing either.

Marriages and divorces cost a LOT of money. I guess some of you know why this thread is titled the way it is... with my daughter married and divorced in 2 years... and now living with us since she's doing internship which means she has no income for a year before she begins to use her Masters in her career.

I wanted them to get married cuz I spent so long not being happy that they were "living together in sin"... but now I'm wondering from a Biblical POV if that's even right. Maybe my wife and I were completely wrong to push the idea of marriage over simply living together. Though we didn't say much on the subject, my daughter sure knew where we stood having grown up with our beliefs.

(pick up my thoughts later... gotta go...)

Well, the way I see it, it isn't my place to tell anyone else how to live his or her life.  I'm doing just fine messing up my own, I don't need to work on someone else's.  Marriage should always be a decision made by the people involved, not by parents or friends or clergy or anyone else.  Some people, quite frankly, have no business getting married, and there is a lot of middle ground between "live in sin" and "marry her/him".  What I think is missing with a lot of people (it seems especially today) is good ol' self-control.  Just because we have urges doesn't mean we have to act on them.  It really is possible to NOT have sex with someone.

As for the non-Christian/Christian issue, I don't think there is a difference.  What good does it do to impose God's standard on people who are incapable of living up to it anyway?  All we end up with is what appears to be good moral people who are still on their way to hell.  If anything, imposing Christian morality hinders the work of the Gospel, IMO, because it makes people think they are already Christians because they do what Christians do.  As for the believers, we have God himself living inside us.  If people aren't listening to Him, why would they listen to us?

Of course, I know I'm more liberal than most of y'all, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

VERY well said. Indeed.

Here's my story in a nutty shell. I raised my kids in the faith the best I could. They know all the "do's and dont's" of the Word, but also the Grace of God and that it's not a religion but rather a relationship, and pretty much everything in between including doctrines of the Person, Nature and Work of Messiah.

Today, my son is 20 and living with his GF in an apartment in SanDiego.

My daughter is now 26 and has an intimate relationship with her new boyfriend (not to mention the fact that the divorce is not finalized... which is another story of legalities on it's own)

I'm not happy with these situations. But I also am coming to terms with the fact that neither of my kids show a remote interest in things spiritual. I'm not a judge of someone's salvation, but their lack of interest and the fact that neither of them have Bibles anymore (I asked), leads me to believe that Christianity is of no interest to them (at this point). I have refrained from preaching to them about "living together" etc etc. cuz I know THEY know already. We had great discussions during Bible study times when they were pre-teen/adolescents.
Having my daughter living here has been interesting as her new man spends a lot of time over here. Including spending the night. Lisa and I told them they ain't sleeping together, rather, if he wants to spend the night, he can sleep on the couch. She gave us a little grief at first, but knowing we don't budge on any rules under our roof, she gave in. (and trust me, I'm up at all hours of the night, and they're good to their word on obeying us).

So from your POV as fellow believers, do you think it's pointless for me to push my son to "do the right thing" and marry this girl at such young ages (when the Biblical institution of marriage doesn't really apply to either of these non-believers) ?
Should I preach at my daughter to not fornicate since it's legally adultery ?  Does any of this really matter when there are NO believers in this scenario at all ?

The only believers are the parents who've already made their stand clear from early childhood.

What if I were to be like my mom and tell my son over and over how he really should get married to her, that he needs to do it the right way, and not "live in sin", etc.... Perhaps his unsaved GF and him won't be married long at all.... then I'd have another divorced child.

Again, just rambling thoughts for anyone who's interested or intrigued.

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:

So from your POV as fellow believers, do you think it's pointless for me to push my son to "do the right thing" and marry this girl at such young ages (when the Biblical institution of marriage doesn't really apply to either of these non-believers) ?
Should I preach at my daughter to not fornicate since it's legally adultery ?  Does any of this really matter when there are NO believers in this scenario at all ?

Of course every child and every situation is different, but given your children are young adults now (as my own daughter is too), this is they way I hope I would handle it.  Ensure that my children understand my view on that kind of behavior (and why), and then let them run their own lives without trying to beat them up daily, weekly or even monthly regarding their bad choices.  I have been kind of strict with my children with many things but I always try to make sure I am not guilty of pushing them away from me by brow beating them over stuff (the key word is "try").  I try to mind what Paul said in Colossians 3:21 "Fathers,do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged."
But of course I'm not always successful.

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:

Having my daughter living here has been interesting as her new man spends a lot of time over here. Including spending the night. Lisa and I told them they ain't sleeping together, rather, if he wants to spend the night, he can sleep on the couch. She gave us a little grief at first, but knowing we don't budge on any rules under our roof, she gave in. (and trust me, I'm up at all hours of the night, and they're good to their word on obeying us).

That is great (and kind of funny), my daughter's fiance lives about 1-1/2 hours drive from our house.  On a few nights he has stayed at our house instead of drive home.  On those nights my daughter has slept with my wife and I slept on the couch.  I am also up once or twice a night and they have both done a good job of staying separated.

 Way to go bro ! Love it !

Well, everyone has had bits and pieces of excellent advise and input, and I appreciate it. I needed a place to ramble and have thoughts bounced back and forth on this... and I think I have a better understanding and comfort as to where everything is right now.

Thanks !

Marriage is something not to take lightly. There's a wonderful couple who attends our church that happen to be living together and our pastor won't marry them. At first I didn't agree with him on the issue but then when I really thought about it the more it made sense and for the same reasons mentioned in this thread