Abortion - I know I am going to get slammed for this...

I am sooooooooooo tired of hearing about it....to the point where I don't care.

Do I think abortion is right? No, I do not. Just like I don't think adultery is right, or greed is right, or lying is right..etc etc

Yet Christians spend so much time slamming people over this one thing....I think maybe because it is easier to slam people for abortion than it is to talk about greed, adultery, etc because those are things that would hit too close to home for most people. After all, God forbid we talk against something that we are guilty of too.

And honestly, here's the reality....

If we didn't have abortion, this country would be in even WORSE shape....

Think about how many of the woman who have them are uneducated, unwed, inner city, poor, and living off the government. The gang problem would be even worse with that many more kids from environments like that. Inner city violence would increase dramatically. Not to mention how much more our dollars would be going to support them.

OK...spew your hate at me...
I know it's coming...

Not hating....but abortion is nothing less than modern day child sacrifice, just like the Old Testament worship of Molech.
These tiny little unborn people need protection.

No hate here. I disagree with abortion but you have a good point. It's easy to point at "those people" who've had one and categorize them as all the same. But we sure like to raise hell (pun intended) when our favorite restaurant is busy on Sunday after church.

bassdude wrote:

Not hating....but abortion is nothing less than modern day child sacrifice, just like the Old Testament worship of Molech.
These tiny little unborn people need protection.

Maybe the children who are already born, being abused, starving, lost, should be a Christian's first priority ?

ishmael81 wrote:

No hate here. I disagree with abortion but you have a good point. It's easy to point at "those people" who've had one and categorize them as all the same. But we sure like to raise hell (pun intended) when our favorite restaurant is busy on Sunday after church.

Exactly...

They figure THAT sin (abortion) is worse than their's ..

BTW...

I really didn't think that in THIS forum you guys would hate on me..that line was tongue in cheek. You guys have more class than that, even if you disagree with me.

Anywhere else? I would be hung...lol

CRAP!!!!  I had a big long response (not hateful, though) typed out and lost it!  I am not sure I want to write all that again!!!

Abortion isn't the problem...it's a symptom of the problem.

To solve the abortion issue you have to heal their hearts, change people's lifestyle of adultery, correct their misunderstanding of what true love is, and end their rebellion from God.

Heal the people and the symptoms will go away on their own.


Otherwise, the people just move farther and farther away from the Truth because of all the hate.

Of course, a lot of Christians, including myself, spend too much time worrying about the latest movie or tv show, or the latest cd to really go out and make a difference.

Honestly, I think most (if not all) of the "hot button" issues are about focusing on the sins of others as a way of making ourselves seem not as bad.

What bugs me about the abortion stuff is really the same thing that bugs me about the atheist stuff and that is that there is a tendency to assign a mindset to the other side and fight against our construct instead of the real deal.  With abortion, it comes down to the baby-killers vs. the woman-haters.  Those who are "pro-choice" are recast into the evil people who are out to heartlessly kill babies.  The doctors who perform the procedures are often depicted as bloodthirsty monsters who are trying to kill as many babies as possible (see the recent John Elefante anti-abortion song video).  The overarching reality, however, is that most of those in the "pro-choice" crowd do not believe it is an actual baby yet (believe me when I say I do not support that view, I'm just saying what they believe), but the "pro-life" crowd believes it is a baby and many can't conceive that other people think differently.  It works the other way too, however, as we "pro-life" people are often perceived as being "anti-woman" and wanting to control what women do with their bodies.  Again, this is based in their perspective that the issue is a matter of choosing a medical procedure to end a pregnancy, and that the women have a right to do that without anyone interfering and imposing their will on her.  Of course the reality is that since we believe it is a human life being killed, we are concerned with saving that life.  As a result, the two sides in this fight are fighting against imaginary enemies and constantly talking at each other instead of with each other.

The answer to the abortion problem isn't legislative.  Outlawing abortion, overturning Rowe v. Wade, cutting funding to Planned Parenthood, etc. won't stop women from having abortions, it will just cause them to seek alternative, less regulated, less safe means for doing it.  These women need alternatives and to be presented with other options.  They need to have the Church being the Church instead of a lynch mob.  They need somewhere to turn.

Ok, I will chime in as the dissenter here.

This is something of a hot-button issue with me mostly because I see it as a sin against someone who can’t fight back (same with child abuse, child molestation, etc.).  Most of the sins you mentioned such as lying, greed, adultery, gluttony (my favorite sin) are sins typically done to ourselves or others old enough to have some way to combat that sin.  When you take something so fragile that it cannot survive outside of its mother and just kill it….how could anyone think that is a good thing to do.

Even the “pro-choice” political side can’t seem to keep from contradicting itself.  The whole “Abortion should be safe and legal but rare” stance that many politicians have makes no sense.  If the fetus in the womb is just a blob of tissue and not a “life” then abortion is perfectly fine and there is no reason it shouldn’t be plentiful.  If the fetus is alive, it is murder (possibly with the exception of the very rare case when a mother’s life is at stake with a non-viable fetus….but that’s really a completely different issue).

I am willing to bet NOIH is bringing this up because of the current scandal regarding the selling of aborted fetal body parts (something that is against the law).  Why is it against the law?  Again if the fetus is not “alive” then they aren’t technically human body parts and there should be no problem with selling them.

Before I was a Christian I believed that abortion should be safe and legally available to any woman, but I never would have aborted a child of my making.  Why? Because I always believed it was killing an unborn child (even when I was an atheist).  Now that I follow Christ I can’t see abortion as anything but murder, and I have the sneaking suspicion that many “pro-choice” people see it as “killing” as well whether they are willing to admit it openly or not.   People may say that the church has several more important issues to tackle before abortion, but the only hotter issue I can think of is getting people to repent and surrender themselves to Christ.

Having said all that there is no way I am going to protest at an abortion clinic.  There is no way I am going to condemn a woman who has had an abortion.  Despite what some people seem to think abortion is not an unforgivable sin.

STaybrite you make several good points.

I'm not sure if this will add to the discussion or not but in Greg Boyd's Myth of a Christian Nation, he talks about a woman at a church where he pastors named Dorothy. Dorothy was pro-choice. Dorothy was also a mentor to a girl named Heather (I'm assuming these names are totally made up).

Heather got pregnant and long story short, her (Christian?) parents kicked her out and disowned her. Dorothy took her in, fed her, clothed her and started taking her to weekly classes and counseling sessions at a local pregnancy resource center (PRC).

Heather decided to keep the baby and placed it for adoption.

Greg's point with this story was that regardless of the laws of our land, we can still be like Jesus and love people where they are.

The Bad Christian podcast talked about this a couple episodes ago. Instead of talking about "those women" and what they did to get pregnant in the first place, why not offer to help and lend them a hand?

ishmael81 wrote:

Heather got pregnant and long story short, her (Christian?) parents kicked her out and disowned her. Dorothy took her in, fed her, clothed her and started taking her to weekly classes and counseling sessions at a local pregnancy resource center (PRC).

Heather decided to keep the baby and placed it for adoption.

Yep, that is what I was talking about...

Change their hearts and the problem will go away on its own

In short- I agree with the premise of what you said initially. I also agree with Staybrite's post.

That said, the only area I have a problem with (I don't disagree- I just have a problem with) is the comments about our country being worse off and the majority who have abortions falling into a category of lesser citizens... what that comes out to sound like is Hitler-ish. Allow the more perfect, the more ideal race to survive and let the lesser people kill themselves off.  It's just a difficult thought to process as a believer.

On another hand, lemme stir the pot up a bit... 
IF (and this is a huge IF, as I personally don't believe this) all babies go to heaven, as is preached from many pulpits, then why stop someone from aborting a human who has a guaranteed ticket to Paradise ?  Do not pass GO, do not collect $200, do not suffer one day on this awful ball of dirt, and jump right into Heaven, where there are millions and millions of babies.... right ?
(Ouch... re-reading this made even ME cringe... haha)

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:

That said, the only area I have a problem with (I don't disagree- I just have a problem with) is the comments about our country being worse off and the majority who have abortions falling into a category of lesser citizens... what that comes out to sound like is Hitler-ish. Allow the more perfect, the more ideal race to survive and let the lesser people kill themselves off.  It's just a difficult thought to process as a believer.

I am a firm believer in survival of the fittest in the animal kingdom..which we are a part of.
Sounds ruthless and anti-Christian, right?

But didn't God set up the way the animal kingdom works? Lions, cheetahs, elephants, birds, rabbits, etc etc etc... All animals adhere to the survival of the fittest rule (except when domesticated). 

I think that one of the things that has weakened this country is the insistence of trying to make everyone equal and making the strong weaker to "level the field". Everyone is NOT equal when it comes to survival.

Just saying.... 

The education system is a PERFECT example of what I mean btw...

To get those that would normally fail to stay in school and get passing grades they have dumbed-down the curricular to the point where EVERYONE is less educated.

NoOneIsHere wrote:

bassdude wrote:

Not hating....but abortion is nothing less than modern day child sacrifice, just like the Old Testament worship of Molech.
These tiny little unborn people need protection.

Maybe the children who are already born, being abused, starving, lost, should be a Christian's first priority ?

I would agree that children who are abused, staving, lost, and so on should be a priority....but not the first priority. The changing of people's hearts by the power of Jesus is the mission we're on in this world. Taking care of people's physical and emotional needs is great, Jesus did a LOT of it while He was here.....but the goal is to take care of the spiritual need, the need of a Saviour.....feeding, clothing, housing people is fantastic, but if we don't introduce them to Jesus, we're just sending well-dressed, well-fed people to hell.

bassdude wrote:

NoOneIsHere wrote:

bassdude wrote:

Not hating....but abortion is nothing less than modern day child sacrifice, just like the Old Testament worship of Molech.
These tiny little unborn people need protection.

Maybe the children who are already born, being abused, starving, lost, should be a Christian's first priority ?

I would agree that children who are abused, staving, lost, and so on should be a priority....but not the first priority. The changing of people's hearts by the power of Jesus is the mission we're on in this world. Taking care of people's physical and emotional needs is great, Jesus did a LOT of it while He was here.....but the goal is to take care of the spiritual need, the need of a Saviour.....feeding, clothing, housing people is fantastic, but if we don't introduce them to Jesus, we're just sending well-dressed, well-fed people to hell.

I disagree. Physical needs to be met first.

"This is how God works. Often He meets the physical need of a person before the spiritual. Jesus did that countless times throughout the New Testament. He met physical needs because those needs were there. He wasn’t meeting physical needs because he wanted to pound them with spiritual truth later. He knew that people who have physical needs – hunger, thirst, in need of a doctor – cannot concentrate on a spiritual problem unless the physical need is taken care of first. That is the way fallen humanity thinks. Our stomachs often demand attention first.
Jesus came to give eternal life, which is the most important need all human beings have. However, in order to be able to meet that need, sometimes, a person’s physical needs must be met first. With a full stomach, or with medical treatment, or to slake someone’s thirst, people are often more willing and able to hear the gospel."




studygrowknowblog.com/2013/11/28/authentic-christians-must-meet-physical-and-spiritual-needs-of-the-lost/

Obviously, this seems to contradict my "survival of the fittest" belief...


I don't believe in weakening a nation to drag along those who are unwilling to try and improve their lot in life


Kingdom principles vs Nation building.....oh what a mess

You crack me up bro !!

NoOneIsHere wrote:

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:

That said, the only area I have a problem with (I don't disagree- I just have a problem with) is the comments about our country being worse off and the majority who have abortions falling into a category of lesser citizens... what that comes out to sound like is Hitler-ish. Allow the more perfect, the more ideal race to survive and let the lesser people kill themselves off.  It's just a difficult thought to process as a believer.

I am a firm believer in survival of the fittest in the animal kingdom..which we are a part of.
Sounds ruthless and anti-Christian, right?

But didn't God set up the way the animal kingdom works? Lions, cheetahs, elephants, birds, rabbits, etc etc etc... All animals adhere to the survival of the fittest rule (except when domesticated). 

I think that one of the things that has weakened this country is the insistence of trying to make everyone equal and making the strong weaker to "level the field". Everyone is NOT equal when it comes to survival.

Just saying.... 

But we are NOT part of the animal kingdom.  I mean, yes we are animals rather than plants or minerals, but there is at least one distinct difference between humans and lower animals (please don't tell Ted I said that!!):  humans are not governed by instinct and have the ability to think and reason.  Even beyond that, there are countless examples of animals that care for the weak and wounded among them rather than leave them to die.  Survival of the fittest in human society is squarely against the things Christ taught.  "As you have done it for the least of these..."

I will agree that the way the system has attempted to make everyone equal has been the completely wrong way to do it.  It isn't about making everyone equal because that just cannot happen.  It isn't classist or racist or sexist or anythingist, it is just the reality of things.  What we need is to make sure everyone has equal OPPORTUNITIES to succeed.  That doesn't mean lowering the standards for the best and brightest, but when schools in wealthier areas get 2-3 times the funding as inner-city and rural schools, something's got to change.  Don't even get me started on No Child Left Behind which says "Hey, your students aren't performing up to standards?  Now you get to try to raise them up with LESS funding.  We'll be back to see how it's going."

That being said, the old adage holds true:  you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  Our responsibility is to provide opportunities for people who are less advantaged, but we can't make them take those opportunities.  It's just a complex issue.

Agreed.