THOUGHT PPROVOKING QUESTION

  In today's society we constantly hear about mental health...I know alot about it as I have studies it and I live with a Bipolar wife....But I got to thinking about this and wondered who the mental people really are...In today's American society we work ourselves to death so we can buy bigger houses and better cars and more technology and more clothes and we are always running in our "fast" society...The doctors say its killing us and the preachers say we should rely on God for everything but most people ignore both and work and run and go and work...etc..Do we really need most of the things in our house? Do we really need brand new clothes and expensive cars and expensive electronics? Do our kids really need all the game machines and IPOD's and IPhones...Do our wives really need all those clothes and all those shoes and purses? Do us men really need all the things we buy? Probably not..I have spent so much money on crap over the last year I could open my own cd store, graphic novel store, video store...and my wife could open her own clothing or jewelery store..and I assure you at the end of the day I look at it all and its just stuff (much of it I really could live without and not miss) ....So the question is are we all mental? Are we all crazy to work ourselves to death for "stuff"?

My family lives (the 6 of us) in a small (1100 square foot house).  We try not to spend a lot of money "getting stuff".  I've been trying to teach my kids that their family and relationship with God is infinitely more important that collecting treasures on earth.

Yes I do think it is more than a little crazy to work yourself to an early grave just to collect material things.

We try and make family life more important than things.  Actually most of the stuff in our house was given to us... Dining Room table and chairs, sofa, tv, wardrobes, coffee table, beds etc.  Because we don't have a lot of money knocking around we tend to not be too concerned with buying stuff.  I try and keep work and home life separate as much as I can.

But I would like a PS4...

I wouldn't say we are all mental.  I'd say for many of us that we have fallen into the trap of the lie called the "American dream".  We want stuff because we can buy it.  We want it because everyone else has it.  We would be better off without most of it.

While it is easy to say that, it is harder to walk away from it.  I live in a smaller house than Gary (760 sq. feet).  We are not home enough to be organized house cleaners.  You'll probably see me on "Hoarders" someday.  I have a two story concrete building behind the house where my CDs live out of necessity.  I also have my workshop area and my studio there.  We have stuff-itis bad as do most Americans as we want new things and get tired of old things but hate to get rid of them.

On the Biblical side, I think it would be called "greed" and possibly even "the love of money".

Wow, our almost 1500 sq ft is more a mansion than I would have thought. But it's a very simple house almost on the wrong side of the tracks. But we own it and are totally debt free. The Lord's blessed me with some major work here recently but I'm still thrifty - I'll go out of my way a bit to fill up at a cheaper station. Other than my sons wanting Legos and computer games, I think we keep ourselves in check fairly well. I'd hate to think how it would be if we had TV commercials. My mom had to explain to our youngest what those were when he stayed with them a couple years back.

topshot rhit wrote:

I'd hate to think how it would be if we had TV commercials. My mom had to explain to our youngest what those were when he stayed with them a couple years back.

I agree, that is a very nice perk about not having cable/satellite tv. 

I've gone through stages of feeling this way. In my early years of walking with God, I occasionally would  "purge" my possessions. I'd have a yard sale or just simply give away tons of my earthly stuff. It did feel good, and I replaced all my "stuff" with time spent with God.  When I say "stuff", I don't mean things I didn't want anymore, I got rid of tons of things I wanted, enjoyed and liked. It was rather healthy and helped me focus more on the spiritual and less on the physical.

Unfortunately, having stuff and collecting things for our own personal enjoyment is a natural part of living in this world and being human.  DCTalk has a song with a very true line that says: ""Ya say ya like to have money, well I do too- The problem starts when the money has you"." You can apply that to all your possessions as well. There are times when my hobbies "have me" and I have to step back and re-evaluate my life and walk with God. Today I wouldn't purge anymore. Today, I try to keep things in perspective. I would gladly give up every possession I have for a good cause, for my family, for someone in need, etc. But I don't have a reason to.

With that in mind, I have to be honest here as well. Also going back to the original thread subject -I like the comparison of mental health. I know a lot of people with mental problems and such, and notice that they're not too attached to their material items, or rushing about for financial gain.
We are rather foolish (and to use the analogy- have more of a "Mental Problem") to toil and spin and worry to get ahead, to buy the things that appear to make us happy. Then as we collect the things that make us "happy", we run out of room and have to "build a bigger barn" to store our earthly possessions - buy insurance to protect those things, etc.

I guess as I type all this, my thoughts go to "moderation" (something I've always had a struggle with). We "need" certain things to survive, and in a way we "need" some items to enjoy this life (face it, this life can suck and having some things to bring us pleasure and enjoyment are a necessity)... but in moderation. I've been poor, I've been well-to-do - and I was most content and happy when I had less, during my poor years. Yet I've been at my least happiest when I had MORE. So again, a happy medium is key -Though we think if we won the lottery and could own whatever we want, we'd be so much happier, but it's the opposite - having our necessities and a few pleasurable items is where it's at.

I just did a lot of thinking out loud here... rambling. So, hope it makes sense

For the past three weekends, my Bible school has been hosting snow camps. The theme for the sermons is that of parables, and the Saturday night (also known as the emotionally-manipulative night ) message is about the prodigal son (of course). The speakers have kept their messages essentially the same, but have changed a few details every weekend. I've never been in a context of hearing similar messages several times, but it's really good, because it lets me think on different points every time.

Anyway, the Saturday night speaker keeps talking about how the younger son spent all his wealth on empty things. Things like (if he were here today) the latest iPhone, the latest expensive cars, girls, luxury hotel, and so on. Those things were a huge disappointment when a "recession" hit, and meanwhile the son had rejected his relationship with his dad, which he had the humility to realize was the only thing he had left. Ultimately, it's all too easy for us to put our hope in things that will disappoint us now if not eternally.

As for me, I'm torn in two. My flesh wants to "enjoy" life and be selfish, while my conscience makes me uncomfortable with spending money on myself. I have many dreams and desires (a car, a woman, a career in music or in engineering), and yet I know that if they're not already disappointing me, they will let me down at some point.

One of my favourite passages is in Proverbs 30, that I shall paraphrase: "Lord, give me only what I need: not too little that I would steal and dishonour You, and not too much that I would forget you and say 'Who is the Lord?'" This hits me every time. I want stuff, but I get absorbed by it and then feel empty when I get bored it it.

As the Teacher said, it's a chasing of the wind.

Sorry for my gloominess

Actually, thanks for the honesty, Driven!  That type of transparency is refreshing and actually uplifting to hear of others with similar struggles!

To be honest, when I originally read Ecclesiastes, I couldn't believe that it was in the Bible. It was so depressing and felt like it contradicted Biblical principles. Now, I understand that it's simply written from a cynic's point of view, and it points toward the source and the importance of true wisdom.

I got reminded of a song from Tom Franzak called Stuff. I can't find the lyrics online and the lyrics in the tape insert are so small, I need to get a magnifying glass.

I did however find the song online...https://myspace.com/tomfranzak/music/song/stuff-21582116-21383301

I can honestly say I don't think I would be too upset if a tornado touched down and destroyed my house. In fact, I am often threatening to have an "everything must go" sale! Would I miss my "stuff" ... sure, but it's just stuff. I think the things I would be sorry to see gone would be those that tie us to our good memories, like the kids' baby pictures, etc.

I think it isn't necessarily a mental issue but more a result of sin. I hate to sound preachy, but when my focus shifts off Jesus, it's easy to focus on making more money, wanting more stuff, whatever.

But I don't think it's wrong to have stuff or money.

For instance, when my dad retired he was making very good money and he and my mother saved a lot over the years. Nothing wrong with that - in fact, it's been a blessing to my wife and I as we've struggled financially for a while now and they've helped out quite a bit. And they helped pay for our adoption 6 years ago.

So I think Driven and g/f hit it when they talked about moderation. Example - I have a CD collection, but it's probably less than 100 discs. If I bought all the discs I wanted, it'd be well over 1000.

I had a big post written out on this and then stupid me did a search for a verse I was going to use but forgot to do it in another tab so I lost the whole thing.  Hey, no reason to cheer so loudly!  I agree this is a society thing more than a medical/psychological thing.

There's nothing wrong with having money, a nice home, a nice car, etc.  But I believe the biblical principle that applies is that we are "blessed to be a blessing."  (Excuse me while a throw up a little.)

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To be honest, when I originally read Ecclesiastes, I couldn't believe that it was in the Bible. It was so depressing and felt like it contradicted Biblical principles. Now, I understand that it's simply written from a cynic's point of view, and it points toward the source and the importance of true wisdom.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite book to read..I completely relate to what the writer wrote..I will be the first to say I am a cynical jaded person...I am actually going to counseling to try and figure out why I feel that way...I think part of it is I am now convinced that everything I was taught as a child was a lie...the American dream, religion, family, ideas about marriage, patriotism, what "good" people think and what society expects from us...all lies... Thats kinda the idea of this thread...I see them building houses all over the place that are huge 2000sf homes that cost in the $300,000 or more and people are working like dogs to buy them..I go to the mall and people line up to buy $400 phones and our mall is full of stores that sell jeans for $100 or more and women's purses for $500 and stores that charge twice as much as the rest of the stores in town do and the mall is always packed...and the parking lot is full of $50,000 cars..even my apartment complex is full of mercedes, buicks, corvettes and those huge F250 trucks   and all my neighbors work 50hrs a week and are always tired and depressed when I see them and it just seems crazy to me even though they tell me its the American dream Yeah, I have all this crap and I am now going through it and starting to part with some of it...some I am giving away and some I am trading it for other stuff   I know you guys all apply a biblical christian view and I respect that but to be honest the further away I get from Christianity the better I feel and the clearer I see..maybe thats just me..then again maybe I just spend to much time in thought

(I need to throw in a side note...I live in Tulsa Oklahoma, the capital of the faith movement (name it claim it)...this is the home of Oral Roberts University, Victory and Rhema Bible College and we have faith moment churches everywhere...Its estimated that all of them combined have a city membership (people who are actively involved) of at least 200,000. I hear alot of people around here tell me that God wants us to have expensive cars and houses and lots of stuff..they see it as a religious command..)

ok, back to the thread...

Savage Amusement wrote:

the further away I get from Christianity the better I feel and the clearer I see

From "God's Not Dead":

Mark: You prayed and believed your whole life. Never done anything wrong. And here you are. You're the nicest person I know. I am the meanest. You have dementia. My life is perfect. Explain that to me!


Mina's Mother: Sometimes the devil allows people to live a life free of trouble because he doesn't want them turning to God. Their sin is like a jail cell, except it is all nice and comfy and there doesn't seem to be any reason to leave. The door's wide open. Till one day, time runs out, and the cell door slams shut, and suddenly it's too late.

Put in perspective with your statement, perhaps the further away you get from Christianity the less the devil messes with and confuses you, making you feel better (more comfortable) and seemingly see clearer.  I horse with blinders on is content with the view ahead because it cannot see the danger coming from the side.

Just thinking out loud.

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Put in perspective with your statement, perhaps the further away you get from Christianity the less the devil messes with and confuses you, making you feel better (more comfortable) and seemingly see clearer.  I horse with blinders on is content with the view ahead because it cannot see the danger coming from the side.

Just thinking out loud.

no, i have just been studying Judaism and the torah and the Tanakh and I have been convinced that they are closer to the truth..thats not to say I dont believe in Jesus but I no longer worship him..I join him in worshipping God the father..the true God who is my Savior... If you want to talk more about this then we can through pm...now back to the original thread...
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This is one of my fav songs about "stuff" and earthly treasures. It's a hilarious song, but despite the humor, it drives it's point home very well:

Savage Amusement wrote:

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Put in perspective with your statement, perhaps the further away you get from Christianity the less the devil messes with and confuses you, making you feel better (more comfortable) and seemingly see clearer.  I horse with blinders on is content with the view ahead because it cannot see the danger coming from the side.

Just thinking out loud.

no, i have just been studying Judaism and the torah and the Tanakh and I have been convinced that they are closer to the truth..thats not to say I dont believe in Jesus but I no longer worship him..I join him in worshiping God the father..the true God who is my Savior... If you want to talk more about this then we can through pm...now back to the original thread...
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How do you rectify the fact that Jesus accepted and even encouraged worship by His actions and failing to reprimand people for their reverence of Him?  He even claimed to BE God through what He said and did.  If we are not to worship Him, then Jesus cannot be the Messiah in my opinion as He would have been encouraging sin by allowing people to wrongly worship Him.

The older I get, the less "stuff" I want. Generally, I get things if I feel I do need them. I should get new clothes because my current clothes are way too big. I will give my old clothes away. I want food because I need food. I like video games, but I don't play them much. I haven't played them in a while. I'm more into retro video games anyway. I agree with the moderation thing. It's okay to have things we dont necessarily need, but it should not be an obsession. We should not be wasteful.

Savage Amusement wrote:

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To be honest, when I originally read Ecclesiastes, I couldn't believe that it was in the Bible. It was so depressing and felt like it contradicted Biblical principles. Now, I understand that it's simply written from a cynic's point of view, and it points toward the source and the importance of true wisdom.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite book to read..I completely relate to what the writer wrote..I will be the first to say I am a cynical jaded person...I am actually going to counseling to try and figure out why I feel that way...I think part of it is I am now convinced that everything I was taught as a child was a lie...the American dream, religion, family, ideas about marriage, patriotism, what "good" people think and what society expects from us...all lies... Thats kinda the idea of this thread...I see them building houses all over the place that are huge 2000sf homes that cost in the $300,000 or more and people are working like dogs to buy them..I go to the mall and people line up to buy $400 phones and our mall is full of stores that sell jeans for $100 or more and women's purses for $500 and stores that charge twice as much as the rest of the stores in town do and the mall is always packed...and the parking lot is full of $50,000 cars..even my apartment complex is full of mercedes, buicks, corvettes and those huge F250 trucks   and all my neighbors work 50hrs a week and are always tired and depressed when I see them and it just seems crazy to me even though they tell me its the American dream Yeah, I have all this crap and I am now going through it and starting to part with some of it...some I am giving away and some I am trading it for other stuff   I know you guys all apply a biblical christian view and I respect that but to be honest the further away I get from Christianity the better I feel and the clearer I see..maybe thats just me..then again maybe I just spend to much time in thought

Very interesting, I don't know how I missed this thread until now. But yeah, I see what you mean. A guy here at work told me about a book called "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". I do not know who wrote it but he went on to say the book inspired him. He said his wife wanted a new car. He said a car loses value as soon as you buy it. A vehicle is designed for two things: to get you from point A to point B and to help you MAKE money (as in take you to work). So if a vehicle is for MAKING money then it should not COST money. He told his wife they had 2 good vehicles and it would be wiser to double up house payments and pay the house off. Then after that was done he would keep those payments going into a savings account. After it was built up to a good nest they could use that to pay cash for a new vehicle. And that is what he did. Took him 8 years but he did it. I admire him for it and wish I could do the same thing. He went on to say "All these brand new trucks you see in the parking lot. Those are for YOU to see what THEY drive. They are used to make an impression when in reality they would be just as fine in your 2000 Ford Ranger because your Ranger is paid for and does what it needs to do -- get you from point A to point B. They are doing the same thing, going from A to B but they want you and everyone else to see them doing it in the latest and greatest".

Made a lot of sense to me! My 2000 Ford Ranger does what it needs to do. Gets me to work to make money and it is paid off so it doesn't cost me money. And our Caravan is also paid for and in great shape even tho it is now 10 years old (we bought it new). Now my Ranger is 2 wheel drive and a 4 cyl. engine. But that is all I need as I don't own a boat or anything else that needs to be towed but from time to time it is nice to have a truck to haul stuff home from Lowe's that doesn't fit in the van. 

And the homes are popping up here like crazy. Insurance in Florida is 4 times higher than the surrounding states. So these people buy these houses and complain about $1500 a month house payments but mine is around $600, cheaper than rent! And it is mine! (at least it will be some day). I live in an older home built in 1956 but I have a nice backyard that is shaded and a park/walking trail behnd our house. Sure, sometimes I want something a little more modern and the house is old and has imperfections but I'm ok with that. 

Now if I could figure out a way to get it paid off early (and right now working on getting rid of a Visa card. Be wary of those, they are from the devil   We had it for "emergencies" and before we knew it it was sky high. So I am working extra to try and get rid of it while building up the savings account.... Then will work on the house payements. 

As for jeans, I bargain shop. I found some carpenter jeans on sale for 14.99. I wasn't looking for them but I needed some anyway and they were normally 44.99. A pretty good deal so I bought 2 pair. I typically try to buy jeans Made In USA from http://www.texasjeans.com and they have quality made jeans starting at 19.99. They will outlast the cheap Indonesian ones I bought for 14.99 (but those were convienient). 

And as for phones, I do prepay and needed a new one. FOund a Motorola Droid for 9.99 on cyber Monday. Was a steal! I'd never pay more than 100 bucks for a phone  and I had been using flip phones this whole time and probably still would be using one if I didn't find that Motorola phone so cheap.

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How do you rectify the fact that Jesus accepted and even encouraged worship by His actions and failing to reprimand people for their reverence of Him?  He even claimed to BE God through what He said and did. 

..first off its not a fact as you or no one else can prove without a doubt that everything written in scripture is 110% true nor you can you prove without a doubt that what is written came from God and not man...thats why its called faith..("faith being confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see"..according to the Christian Bible...thats why faith starts with being convinced in the mind and then in the heart)..what is a fact  is that Jesus wasn't the only person to claim to be the messiah, not the only person to ever do miracles and not the only person to ever be raised from the dead or be crucified...and according to the Hebrew scriptures (that existed way before Jesus) not the messiah...Now I do believe that Jesus the man did exist and that he was a teacher and that he did have the disciples as that has been proved...Even if he is the son of God I still dont buy into the trinity or the idea of original sin and that alone just killed 90% of a persons belief in Christianity as taught today by the majority of the churches...

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If we are not to worship Him, then Jesus cannot be the Messiah in my opinion as He would have been encouraging sin by allowing people to wrongly worship Him.

The jewish teaching (supported by the Hewbrew Scripture) says that the messiah will be a human of 2 human parents who will be annointed by God but will not want nor require worship of himself but will insist on worship of the father alone...Scripture says that God is one (not 3 persons) and that God hates human sacrifice and would never ever ask for it nor expect it..in fact it says that God finds it so horrible that he would never have even thought of it...Jewish scripture as well as the modern Jews of today teach that the law is for the jews only and not gentiles, Christians or anyone else and that anyone who worships the father alone (be they jew, Christian, Muslim or anyone else) will have a role in the next world... I do worship God the father..the God of david, moses and Abraham... Also Jews teach and back up with scripture that the messiahs coming has nothing to do with sin or the removal of sin and that man can choose of their own free will to obey the law or not but that if we choose to ask for forgiveness from the father he will forgive us..no sacrifice needed...learning about Judaism straight from Jews and Jewish writings themselves has revealed to me that what Christians say about jews and what Christians claim jews believe is false...personally it makes way more sense to me than most Christianity...as you know I have always said the law was not for gentiles or christians and NT scripture says where there is no law their is no sin so sin isnt something I even think about or worry about anymore...and since I am a gentile I am not under the law so all that is required of me is to love God and as a result my life is changed by my father in heaven who is my Savior...

So then you've made Jesus to be nothing. Sure, I cannot prove what Jesus did and did not say, but you cannot prove that the Jewish rules, traditions, and teachings are real.  So, BOTH are by faith.  However, I am willing to err on the side of being wrong just because of the difference that Jesus has made in my life.

Also, if I might say this as a friend, it also sounds as though you are being blown around by every wind of doctrine that comes down the pike.  I hope and pray that you find balance so that you stop bouncing from one extreme to the other every time you read and research another "truth".

Everything you have said is true aldat..i have been blown around from truth to truth since i was a kid...we changed churches..and theology's..about every 2 years when i was a kid always being told the last place was wrong and the same thing as an adult...i am coming to a place of peace slowly..at the end of the day I love and trust our father in heaven and I attempt to love others and live my life...