Honest Question for any American here!

Okay, so this may be a cultural thing, but I don't really get what's going on in the US at the moment.  In the UK they've highlighted three cases (George Floyd, Daunte Wright and Caron Nazario) and in each of those three cases the guys being questioned by the police were in some way or other resisting arrest, or not complying with what they are being asked to do.  In the UK (from what I've seen) we basically do as the poice tell us.


1 - In the mid 90's I was walking to work with 3 colleagues at about 5.30am, and the police stopped us and asked us what one of us was carrying.  It was a long box.  So my colleague told them, and they went on their way.  None of us said "None of your business" or "Leave us alone".


2 - In the mid 00's I had a head on collision with a cyclist.  It was his fault (as he was cycling around a bend, going the wrong way down a one way round, and he was drunk).  When the police turned up, I was breathalysed, and made to sit in the back of the police car, and then questioned.  And at no point did I think about saying "I've done nothing wrong, I'm not getting in your car."


So, my question is...  In the US, is it your right to say "NO" to the police, and not comply?  And do the police need to explain exactly why they are doing what they are doing?

if they don't suspect you of committing a crime, you owe them nothing

In general police need to have "probable cause" to stop you. In general you need to comply, but there is also the 4th amendment which protects "against unreasonable searches and seizures". So there is some gray area as to what each of those really mean.

I'm only familiar with the George Floyd case, but he had several legal issues in the past so his resisting was mostly because he didn't want to go back to jail since he knew that is what would happen. Hence why he also consumed the drugs that killed him in an attempt to hide the evidence.

The U.S. has a long history of defying authority (right or wrong).  However, I would say through most of the 1950s through 1990s most people were respectful to the police when asked questions or detained.  It seems to have only been the last 20 years or so that many people in this country have grown to distrust the police and have begun to resist their authority.
 
When I was a kid I was taught to listen and respect the police.  If they improperly questioned or illegally detained you, or even physically harmed you in a way that violated your rights you where to do your best not to resist and/or verbally argue with the police.  You could file charges against the officers later and likely be vindicated in court if the police improperly treated you.

But in 1991 a black man by the name of Rodney King lead police on a high speed chase.  He was drunk and on parole at the time.  When the officers finally caught up to him four of them beat him in excess of 50 times with their batons as he lay on the ground attempting to protect himself (I don't remember him resisting arrest after they finally caught him).  The officers where all white, and were all charged with excessive force.  The trial of the officers was unable to convict them of the charge and they were found “not guilty”.  This touched off a huge riot in L.A. where many blacks pulled whites, and even light skinned Latinos from their cars and beat them.
 
Since then it seems that a hatred of police has grown in this country.  While it is true that there are some racist and bad cops, many of the rest of them are good servants to their communities.  You will notice that older populations of people in this country (say 45+ in age) on average with show deference and respect to police officers regardless of their color.  However, it seems to have become more common among younger people to resist the authority of police and even physically fight back against them.  This kind of behavior seems to be much more common in lower income neighborhoods (regardless of race).

Another element aggravating the issue is the media (mostly television).  90%+ of the television media in this country is highly liberal.  For some reason the popular narrative in the last 10-20 years is to attempt to push a belief that there is far too much white on black crime (although statistics don't seem to bear that).  Especially if it is a white police officer beating or even killing any black person (regardless of the person’s guilt or actions).  The media will almost completely ignore black on black violence, white on white violence and certainly will go out of it’s way to completely bury black on white violence.  It seems like this has embolden troubled people in their 20’s and 30’s (especially) to fight back against police as if they have a right to fight to the death in an effort to keep from being arrested.


It’s certainly a more complicated than my summary. But I’m limited in my ability to dissect the subtle sociology of this young nation and it’s problems.

Been watching a lot of Adam 12 lately on MeTV. It is an accurate portrayal of beat cops during the 70's. Maybe not so much now but that's how I remember interaction with police when I was a kid. 

These days I live in a small community (which is still Panama City) and we have our own little town hall and police force. If I get stopped for rolling thru a stop sign or anything else they will look at my license and say something like "oh you live by such and such do you know them?" and I'll say if I do or don't and we will shoot the breeze for a minute. Then he will usually send me on my way with a verbal warning. A few weeks ago around 2:30am I got "blue lighted" from the opposite direction so I stopped and rolled down my window. He rolled down his and he said "slow it down, it's 25 thru here. Where you headed this time of night?". And I said "to the mill they called me in for overtime and I decided to go in and make some extra money". Then we chatted for a minute and I went on my way. 

It is certainly not like this in other areas. The beach cops put up with a lot of crap from tourists so they are much less patient. But I like our community cops. I am not sure how many are on the force but I think maybe only a handful. None have ever ticketed me or even written a warning.

Thanks for the replies.  It's always good to get a bit of context, as when I saw the footage on TV and Youtube, I thought it was interesting how no one reporting on the events seemed to mention how each of the situations began.

It's kind of similar to the gun control issue.  In the UK, as I grew up, everyone believed owning a gun was a bad idea, so on hearing about the gun lobby in the US I thought it was a bit bizarre.  Since then I've done some research and chatted to various folks, and now I understand how culture and situations make things completely different depending on what country you're from.

Thanks for the replies 

Fundy wrote:

Thanks for the replies.  It's always good to get a bit of context, as when I saw the footage on TV and Youtube, I thought it was interesting how no one reporting on the events seemed to mention how each of the siutations began.

It's kind of similar to the gun control issue.  In the UK, as I grew up, everyone believed owning a gun was a bad idea, so on hearing about the gun lobby in the US I thought it was a bit bizarre.  Since then I've done some research and chatted to various folks, and now I understand how culture and situations make things completely different depending on what country you're from.

Thanks for the replies 

I was listening to a short section of interview with Piers Morgan (and someone else....I think Ben Shapiro).
In their discussion Morgan indicated that the gun violence in Great Brittan was handled as a public health issue.  So in essence the public was more "on-board" with reducing the number of guns in the country.  The contrast with the U.S. is that gun reduction is portrayed as almost a completely political issue causing the "us against them" problem.  Morgan did admit that during the first 5 years after the major gun reduction in Britain there was a substantial increase in gun crime, and it wasn't until the government enacted stricter punishments against gun-crime offenders that the gun related crimes decreased.  Morgan went on to admit that some areas of Great Britain have issues with increases in knife related crimes.
This seems to be the major complaint with American gun rights activists.  If you outlaw guns, the law abiding citizens will surrender their guns and only outlaws will have them.  Criminals will be better equipped to inflict harm against their victims.
On the other side advocates of decreasing gun ownership insist that it will more difficult for criminals to get guns and use them in violent crimes (the argument that it's harder to stab 50 people to death than it is to shoot them).  The weakens in that argument is that there are already hundreds of millions of guns in the U.S. (an estimated 120 guns per person in the U.S. according to Wikipedia).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

I will add one thing. Most of us on this forum are white. We don't have any true idea of racism against us as someone black, Hispanic or Asian does.

While I mostly agree with that statement, I believe the whites in South Africa might have a bone or two to pick with you.

It isn't just a problem resisting cops.  The USA has a problem with any authority anymore.  You see it with how people respond to cops.  You can see it with how parents follow traffic rules at a school or the way students disrespect parents and/or teachers.

Our nation has just become downright hateful and just about the whole nation needs an old fashioned butt-whoopin' to stop the tantrums!

That probably goes for the UK too.  We could do with being told off a bit!

Thanks for asking that question Fundy. I have been wondering the same thing. Certainly, most law-abiding people in NZ would immediately follow police instructions so it's hard for a foreigner to understand what we see on the news coming out of the US. As you say, a bit of context is useful to help understand the cultural differences. Appreciate you guys taking the time   : )

Speaking of George Floyd's case, I haven't been following the media, but I'd guess they'd be claiming it's open and shut. That would be pure BS if you've actually watched the trial and understand the law. While Chauvin should be found not guilty of the current charges, I suspect a hung jury will be the result. WAY too much pressure on the jury to convict. The city (and parts of the country) will explode if they return not guilty, and there's no way their identities will be kept secret for long so they and their families will face persecution and I would bet violence. In fact, several prospects cited that concern in their voir dire to be excused from serving. However, I expect there will be at least 1 juror that will do what is right and not cave.

Here is a good analysis of the trial so far from an actual lawyer who does have a conservative bias, but he's watched every minute and is an expert in self-defense and use of force law.

<rant>BTW, the great majority of "racist" police murder or abuse cases that have made highlights the past several years (as well as Zimmerman from several years further back) have been legally justified. The media has been stirring things up to divide the country.</rant> Not to say that there are not some racist police just like their are racists in other positions all over the world.

Normaniac wrote:

While I mostly agree with that statement, I believe the whites in South Africa might have a bone or two to pick with you.

As well as whites in Zimbabwe.

alldatndensum wrote:

It isn't just a problem resisting cops.  The USA has a problem with any authority anymore.  You see it with how people respond to cops.  You can see it with how parents follow traffic rules at a school or the way students disrespect parents and/or teachers.

Our nation has just become downright hateful and just about the whole nation needs an old fashioned butt-whoopin' to stop the tantrums!

There are also some problems with those being placed IN positions of authority. Generally, there is no biblical understanding of the proper role of governmental authority; neither how to obey it nor how to wield it. Yes, these are rare, but they make a big splash in the news when they occur, and it seems that all too often the politically-connected person gets off with a handslap in cases where a "normal citizen" would wind up in jail. Of course, there are the reverse situations like the recent Derek Chauvin case. Neither is justice, IMO.

This goes back somewhat to the OP question. Why the defiance to authority? And how does the gun issue tie in (if it does)? We need to remember that government, though ordained of God, is still administered by man. All men are sinful. Therefore we cannot inherently trust gov't any more than anything else just because it is "the gov't". Governments conducted more mass murders in the 20th century than any other group, and (for those who do not belief in "just war") I'm not talking about during wartime, I'm talking state-sponsored genocides. The resistance to authority in the US stems historically from the initial belief that it is the citizenry's duty to be a check on gov't; that while we are under its authority we do not follow it blindly. Naturally this is taken too far by some, and not heeded enough by others.

topshot rhit wrote:

However, I expect there will be at least 1 juror that will do what is right and not cave.

Unfortunately, I was not correct though not surprised really. While most of the US (the world?) seems to see this as justice served, I see it as justice twisted and perverted based on ALL the evidence and facts of the case and the LAW. It is clear in this case that "the mob rules" (cue Black Sabbath).

A terrible precedent has been set now. Frankly, I don't see it as a whole lot different than the terrible lynchings of our country's racist past except Chauvin hasn't been killed physically. If there is any justice it will be overturned on appeal, but who knows how long that could take. To be clear, I don't think Chauvin did everything right or not excessively perhaps, but he's not guilty of these specific charges.

I can add something here. I can remember when Obama was still in the House. He made a speech and something he said basically sounded like declaring war on cops. Shortly after that there were news reports coming from Baton Rouge and elsewhere about cops getting ambushed and killed . After that things have escalated and then eventually settled down while Trump was in office. Now with Biden things seem to be starting again.