Governing Authorities

I posted this on FB initially, but think it would be better discussed here as well -

In light of the strong opinions and even hatred for the Presidents and their accompanying cronies over recent years, how does Romans 13 play into this? 
Is it a "Time, Language, Culture" issue for Believers at that time, and doesn't apply to modern day America? If it does apply, then did God truly place Biden/Harris in power as He did the evil Judges and Kings (whom the Israelites, with no hindsight, only understood "why" after the fact)
Are we to respect a Governing Authority that goes against so many issues Christians hold dear? 
How would this apply to us today? 


[So you don't have to flip there] :
"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.  Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.  For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.  For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.  Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."

Yeah this is a pretty relevant discussion point! I'm curious what folks have to say.

I've heard it argued that the United States is a special case because we're a democratic republic - meaning the "authority" is the people, not the public "servants" (i.e. elected officials). I sure do like the sounds of that though I can't say I'm entirely convinced that's not just some slick way of circumventing the heart of what's written in Romans 13...

Yes, God allows us to have the rulers we do just like Israel. We are to submit unless doing so goes against God.

should we respect the government, which is established by God? yes.

that being said, as far as obeying OUR government, because of the way it was originally set up, as stated, the people are the authority. government is in subjugation to us and the Constitution puts tight limits on government's power...

the way I see it, if the gov tries to impose something on us or establish a law that is outside the powers given to them as laid out in the constitution, we are under no obligation to comply and we have every right to ignore it...

the example I always gave my wife (she used to disagree on this) is that, as her head, I have a biblical authority over her given by God. however, if I tell her to go rob a bank, she has no obligation to carry that out and of course should flat reject it...the reason she should reject my "order" is that I do not have the authority to tell her to do that...I would be speaking outside of the authority given me by God...

I realize that the consequence may be that one opposing the government may end up in jail or whatever, I'm just saying that we have no obligation to bow to authority that does not exist...

I feel that too many in the church use Romans 13 out of context. Because Psalm 94:20 also says:

"Can a corrupt throne be allied with you— a throne that brings on misery by its decrees?"

The following blog post by Mario Murillo explores this in a bit more detail. It's not real long. I'll post the link in case anyone might want to read it.

https://mariomurillo.org/2021/03/29/do-you-know-when-and-when-not-to-submit-to-government/

So the Romans 13 passage is to be followed as far as the leaders are in line with God's truth. Most leaders don't line up with Christianity so that's a tough one. Both parties have issues that make it difficult for Christians to be subject to any of them, especially Democrats. I suppose we are subject to the things that we agree with and not subject on the ungodly issues. Kind of a pick and choose subjection    It says God establishes the governing leaders, and when yahoos like Biden get in there, I suppose it's like the Old Testament when it says "then the children of Israel sinned against God again, so another wicked King was given power to rule over them" - America certainly fits this pattern.

American leadership is suppose to be We The People, but unfortunately "we people" have proven time and again that we want to hold the hand of a leader to guide us and do everything for us. We've strayed far from our understanding of what it means for the People to be the "Boss" and the governing powers to be our employees.

I like the Psalm 94:20 passage, it definitely applies and is a perfect cross reference to Romans 13.

For me, the Scripture is pretty clear that we are to follow the authorities.  However, Jesus is a higher power as He is the Creator.  He defied the authorities when their laws and regulations went against the laws of God.  We see that same example in the Apostles.  When you add all Scripture up, we can clearly see that we are to follow the authorities God has placed over us, whether good or evil, until their laws usurp the will of God.  Then, we must follow Jesus into some godly civil disobedience.

According to the Constitution of the United States of America, written by men of authority that God established, any law that is passed that goes against the Constitution of the United States of America is not a law.

crucifyd wrote:

should we respect the government, which is established by God? yes.

that being said, as far as obeying OUR government, because of the way it was originally set up, as stated, the people are the authority. government is in subjugation to us and the Constitution puts tight limits on government's power...

the way I see it, if the gov tries to impose something on us or establish a law that is outside the powers given to them as laid out in the constitution, we are under no obligation to comply and we have every right to ignore it...

the example I always gave my wife (she used to disagree on this) is that, as her head, I have a biblical authority over her given by God. however, if I tell her to go rob a bank, she has no obligation to carry that out and of course should flat reject it...the reason she should reject my "order" is that I do not have the authority to tell her to do that...I would be speaking outside of the authority given me by God...

I realize that the consequence may be that one opposing the government may end up in jail or whatever, I'm just saying that we have no obligation to bow to authority that does not exist...

The Constitution does not enforce itself. The USA is a republic, "if we can keep it". Yes, the gov't derives its just powers from the consent of the governed, and though many of us do not consent to what is happening, we do nothing about it. I would say we are NOT "keeping it". The central government has gotten away with so much for so long that it seems it's not quite sure what to do about the handful of governors that are standing up to it now.

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:

So the Romans 13 passage is to be followed as far as the leaders are in line with God's truth. Most leaders don't line up with Christianity so that's a tough one. Both parties have issues that make it difficult for Christians to be subject to any of them, especially Democrats. I suppose we are subject to the things that we agree with and not subject on the ungodly issues. Kind of a pick and choose subjection    It says God establishes the governing leaders, and when yahoos like Biden get in there, I suppose it's like the Old Testament when it says "then the children of Israel sinned against God again, so another wicked King was given power to rule over them" - America certainly fits this pattern.

American leadership is suppose to be We The People, but unfortunately "we people" have proven time and again that we want to hold the hand of a leader to guide us and do everything for us. We've strayed far from our understanding of what it means for the People to be the "Boss" and the governing powers to be our employees.

I like the Psalm 94:20 passage, it definitely applies and is a perfect cross reference to Romans 13.

1Sa 8:6 definitely applies here. Fits the pattern of sin. We don't want a fulfilled eternal life; we'd rather have lots of stuff filling this life. We don't want to listen to Truth; we want our ears tickled. We don't want the real King to guide us; we want a false king to lead. Even given one of the best systems of human gov't ever on this earth, many want to cede control of their lives over to someone else, as long as they have bread and circuses.

I guess we are witnessing what it's like to stray from God... no bueno

Here's something I've been wondering too: just who are considered "governing authorities?" Is the warlord with the biggest guns a "governing authority" of wherever they reign? Maybe they're breaking the local laws, but they're effectively in control of that domain.

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:

I guess we are witnessing what it's like to stray from God... no bueno

While the morals of our nation have spiraled downward since the 1960s, the big turn away from God as a nation happened during the Obama years.  He was right when he declared that we were no longer a Christian nation.  The people attending that speech cheered.  Since then, many Christians have bought into the new Democrat party's agenda and are helping to spread their ideology.

We aren't just seeing a nation turn against God:  we truly are seeing a great turning away.  We will see even more people who claim to share our faith walk away even faster in the years to come.

We have to make our calling and election sure, folks.  As Monsterus asked in one of their songs, "Are you gonna bow if they make you bleed?"

alldatndensum wrote:

We aren't just seeing a nation turn against God:  we truly are seeing a great turning away.  We will see even more people who claim to share our faith walk away even faster in the years to come.

I believe we're seeing both. A great turning away, but also an awakening and renewal among the faithful remnant. The church always grows under persecution; it is the great paradox. I believe this is why we see such stark division in the political realm, with no one left in the middle. Everyone is doubling down on their bet: those who say there is no God are all in, those who say there IS a God on the throne are doing the same. The abolitionist movement is finally rising to some level of prominence in its fight against the US's national shame, abortion. This even as sexuality separate from God's plan is graphically displayed in front of our kids in the name of "education".

A massive upheaval of some kind is coming. These are but the beginning of the birth pains. Get ready for a bumpy ride, friends.

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:

So the Romans 13 passage is to be followed as far as the leaders are in line with God's truth. Most leaders don't line up with Christianity so that's a tough one. Both parties have issues that make it difficult for Christians to be subject to any of them, especially Democrats. I suppose we are subject to the things that we agree with and not subject on the ungodly issues. Kind of a pick and choose subjection    It says God establishes the governing leaders, and when yahoos like Biden get in there, I suppose it's like the Old Testament when it says "then the children of Israel sinned against God again, so another wicked King was given power to rule over them" - America certainly fits this pattern.

American leadership is suppose to be We The People, but unfortunately "we people" have proven time and again that we want to hold the hand of a leader to guide us and do everything for us. We've strayed far from our understanding of what it means for the People to be the "Boss" and the governing powers to be our employees.

I like the Psalm 94:20 passage, it definitely applies and is a perfect cross reference to Romans 13.

I'm going to resist the urge to talk about the idea that one political ideology is inherently more Godly than the others and go right to poking a hole in the first sentence.  Paul wrote the Romans 13 passage to the Church at Rome, which made the governing authorities the Roman government, which was far from following God's truth.  So why would Paul write something to tell believers to submit to the governing authorities who were definitely not Godly authorities if what he meant was submit to governing authorities as long what they are telling you to do goes along with God?

messiaen77 wrote:

why would Paul write something to tell believers to submit to the governing authorities who were definitely not Godly authorities if what he meant was submit to governing authorities as long what they are telling you to do goes along with God?

because we are to obey God rather than men...
clearly (with the rest of scripture), Paul is not suggesting
that we disobey God...

Excellent answers. I couldn't agree more. Shadrack Meshack and Abednigo come to mind