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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:34 pm

I find it dis-heartening that in the decades I've been buying music online, using dozens of different music suppliers, the ONLY problems I've ever had were with the "Christian" businesses. 

I don't know about anyone else's experiences, but for me:
I've dealt with countless suppliers thru Discogs, eBay and Amazon, 
I've bought directly from artists, 
I've used many online stores that supply music like K-Mart, Wal-mart, Target, Best Buy,  
I've supported online music stores that eventually went out of business during the mp3 craze of the late 90s, early 2000s 

And I had NO problems getting what I paid for from ALL of them.

A few "Christian specific" businesses that I've purchased music from have also had 100% fantastic customer service, like ROXX,  Brent Miller, CMD, CBD, Boone's Overstock, NLTM, Crossings, Rad Rockers, and a couple others I can't recall right now. I've also successfully bought albums directly from labels and artists like Chris Dickens, Vic Griffin of Place of Skulls, Scott from Ultimatum, Mazi from Desyre, and others. All with zero problems.

But this is where it becomes upsetting: The only sources that royally screwed me over were from Christian suppliers- 

Without going into the details that most of you already know,
* 7Ball Magazine/Sampler CD subscription- Took my payment for a years subscription, delivered only one magazine/CD then disappeared altogether.
* Girder shorted me 2 albums on an order for 5 CDs. Took over 3 months of emails to get the 2 missing CDs I paid for.
* Girder shorted me The Crucified's 7' vinyl on a later order of 3 albums. Said they'd get that 7" to me - that was maybe 12ish years ago.
* Redemption Vinyl took 38 bucks out of my account and never delivered the 2 LPs promised by contract, despite promising me they would over several months of emails. That was a year and half ago. I turned them into the BBB who have been telling me that RV won't return their calls/emails.
* Ordered 2 CDs from [[REDACTED]], then over a 3 month period I kept contacting him asking where the CDs are, he'd tell me he'd get them in the mail right away each time. Finally near the 3 month mark, I told him to just KEEP MY MONEY as a donation, and that he should take lessons from his friend Vic Griffin who actually sends the products people give him money for ! A while later I finally got the albums in the mail from [[REDACTED]]. But I shouldn't have to beg someone to get a product I paid for.

All of this has left me cynical of buying from Christians (that I don't know), and I'd rather take my business to secular companies.


*
I [[REDACTED]] his name as he eventually DID send me the products I paid for, and I don't want his name on a thread that can be searchable via Google.


Last edited by Guilty/Forgiven on Wed May 23, 2018 4:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Samson

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:39 pm

Brent Miller is the best one I have ever dealt with.
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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:10 pm

Samson wrote:
Brent Miller is the best one I have ever dealt with.

OMG I am so ashamed that I forgot to add him on there ! I'm getting senile or something. I've bought and traded tons of stuff with him and he's always been FANTASTIC to deal with ! Thanks for the reminder .... duh
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Hardkore

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:36 pm

I think I can consider myself lucky. I have only ordered from Girder once and nothing went wrong. It was shortly after that that I started hearing bad stories about them. Since then I have stayed away from there.
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Staybrite

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:50 pm

I was burned once by a band, but they fixed it (also sounded like it wasn't really their fault).
I ordered two cds from a band by the name of Believe, from their website.  Oddly enough their order instructions had me sending payment to a church.  So I sent a personal check to the church with a printed order form.  12 weeks went by and my check had been cashed but I never received either of the cds.  I contacted the band via e-mail and they were horrified to learn what had happened, they mailed me two cds themselves without any real proof that I had paid (that's how you deal with a fan).

I have listened to dozens of people complain about David Benson selling his own music.  He is either horribly late or often seems to forget some orders altogether.  It sound like he shouldn't sell his own music.  I have three or four of his albums, but haven't purchased any of them from him directly.

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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:52 pm

Quote :
(that's how you deal with a fan)

Absolutely. Like I told Anthony Gober - Mistakes are expected and easy to forgive for me, but fraud and theft should never be a part of ANY business representing the Name of Christ


Quote :
He is either horribly late or often seems to forget some orders altogether. 

I dig his music, but my gosh, it's not rocket science to take an order and mail it out. He worked with Vic Griffin of Pentagram and Place of Skulls - I ordered 3 POS CDs from Vic and got them within a week. I contacted David 4 different times in 3 months and each time he promised me they'd go out immediately. I'd treat my fans a little better if it were me. It took me upsetting him with a final message telling him to just keep the money, and take some customer service lessons from Vic, only then did he send me what I paid for. Sheesh !



Quote :
I have only ordered from Girder once and nothing went wrong.

Count yourself lucky then. It seems he (Girder) takes care of enough customers to keep him in business. Whenever I see the topic of Girder come up, whether it's on these kinds of discussion boards, different Facebook music pages, or in private conversations, without fail there are usually more than one, if not MANY people who have been burned.
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MikeInFla

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:44 am

I have used Girder maybe 3 times in the last 10 or 15 years and in those 3 orders I have had no issues. Same with Boone's Overstock and the old RetroActive website.

Remember Divine Metal Distro? TONS of people had money taken from them. I ordered from the guy several times and always got my product but the only thing I ordered were the Intense Millennium CD's. They were going to reissue all the Intense stuff and never did. They also "signed" a bunch of bands and never released anything (I think David Benson was also on the list of signed artists who never released anything but a reissue or two). The packaging on the IMR releases was terrible. Bad artwork and microscopic lyrics that you couldn't read. But I got my product. I guess I am one of the lucky ones but these days I just order from Amazon.
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alldatndensum
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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:30 am

While I ended up getting my stuff from Girder, it left a bad feeling when so many other people were getting stiffed by them.  I haven't bought from them since.

Guardian's two year long Kickstarter campaign also left me a bit wary.  If you are gonna do a Kickstarter, you have got to put out the product by the promised time or keep great updates going.  Randy Rose was very late, but he kept us in the loop of what was going on and why.

I've only truly not gotten my stuff from one band.  When cassettes were big, L.O.U.D. were doing an ad in Heaven's Metal where you could preorder their 2nd and third album.  Your name would be in the liner notes.  Album two came a few months later.  I wrote to them about a year after that, and they said there would be no third album.  I never got any of my money back.  I guess it took all the money for the 2nd demo album.

I've had great experiences ordering from Disciple, Bride (on multiple occasions), Saint, Roxx, Retroactive, and a ton more.  While I never had any issues, some folks ran into the illegal bootleg copies from Rad Rockers.  I have bought some bootleg albums, but I never got one from RR.  So, for me, they get a pass as well.

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Staybrite

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:34 pm

I also remember getting burned by an e-bay seller once.  I purchased two of the earlier Bride cds, what I got was CDR with sticker labels and cheap insert that had been photo copied.  I reported him to e-bay (as did several others). Pretty certain he got shut down, but I never saw my money again.

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Samson

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:55 pm

Staybrite wrote:
I was burned once by a band, but they fixed it (also sounded like it wasn't really their fault).
I ordered two cds from a band by the name of Believe, from their website.  Oddly enough their order instructions had me sending payment to a church.  So I sent a personal check to the church with a printed order form.  12 weeks went by and my check had been cashed but I never received either of the cds.  I contacted the band via e-mail and they were horrified to learn what had happened, they mailed me two cds themselves without any real proof that I had paid (that's how you deal with a fan).


Do you have their "Seven Miles Deep" album? If so, would you be willing to sell it? I used to have it but traded it to Dale Huffman over 10 years ago. After that, they broke up, and try as I might, I couldn't find any way to contact them to ask them if they still had any more copies.
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alldatndensum
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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Tue May 01, 2018 6:22 am

Quote :
I have used Girder maybe 3 times in the last 10 or 15 years and in those 3 orders I have had no issues. Same with Boone's Overstock and the old RetroActive website.

I don't know if the old Retroactive website is still up or not.  If so, DON'T use it.  Boone's Overstock is THE place to get Retroactive releases.  Somehow, Greg Hays of Girder ended up buying the Retroactive site.  That is why it stopped being updated with news about new releases and such.

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Staybrite

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Tue May 01, 2018 12:54 pm

Samson wrote:
Staybrite wrote:
I was burned once by a band, but they fixed it (also sounded like it wasn't really their fault).
I ordered two cds from a band by the name of Believe, from their website.  Oddly enough their order instructions had me sending payment to a church.  So I sent a personal check to the church with a printed order form.  12 weeks went by and my check had been cashed but I never received either of the cds.  I contacted the band via e-mail and they were horrified to learn what had happened, they mailed me two cds themselves without any real proof that I had paid (that's how you deal with a fan).


Do you have their "Seven Miles Deep" album? If so, would you be willing to sell it? I used to have it but traded it to Dale Huffman over 10 years ago. After that, they broke up, and try as I might, I couldn't find any way to contact them to ask them if they still had any more copies.

I traded (or gave) away both of their albums a number of years ago, or else I would have gladly sent it to you.

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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Wed May 02, 2018 1:00 am

Greg of Girder/Redemp Vinyl somehow scored a hugemongous stock of new sealed Christian music LPs. For example, a giant stack of SHOUT: It won't be long records, still sealed, brand new - not sure how he did this, where he got them, but that was his motivation to start this record club.

A few months after he stiffed me of the 2 albums I bought, I kept noticing new sales on ebay of multiple sealed LPs of the EXACT same stock he had available at Redemp Vinyl. I don't know if he just wasn't making enough money thru RV and decided to sell them on ebay, or if he decided to sell them at both places to fill his pockets twice as much... IDK. Either way, I feel wicked bitterness when I see him selling albums on ebay knowing that 2 of those should be mine. Unlike Benson, I will not just say "well, consider the 40 bucks a gift"... I will continue to smear him and make sure everyone I know are made aware of the snake this man is.
Someone told me a few months ago "Whatever, I'm still gonna sign up with RV", my response was "It's your money... and soon to be his. Hope you don't mind donating your cash to him"
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MikeInFla

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Wed May 02, 2018 6:28 am

https://redemptionvinyl.com/

Looks like it is gone
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messiaen77

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Wed May 02, 2018 8:27 am

I never had a problem from any of these retailers back when I used to buy my music that way.  I think I only used Girder once or twice, but I was a regular Rad Rockers buyer and bought a ton through DMD.  I think I had just received an order from them when I first heard of the problems people were having with getting their stuff from them.  I'm certainly not saying any of this to negate other people's experiences.  There's a thread on another forum about the distro out of Mexico that is run by one of the guys in Hortor (I don't remember all the details) that has apparently been notorious for ripping people off too.

G/F, I think your situation is symptomatic of a greater problem within today's Christianity.  Christians have lost credibility because some who claim the name are less trustworthy and less Christ-like than some who are actually anti-Christ in their beliefs.  I've got a lot more I'd love to say on this, but I think it would be taking the thread down a rabbit hole, so I'll just stop here.
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Through The Dark Radio

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Wed May 02, 2018 9:01 am

If only Blastbeats were still around.
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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Wed May 02, 2018 12:17 pm

MikeInFla wrote:
https://redemptionvinyl.com/

Looks like it is gone

GOOD !!! Finally. Last time I checked it was about 2 months ago, and it just burned me even more to think he was STILL there stealing money from Christians. 

Perhaps there were enough complaints... or maybe getting the BBB involved made a difference ?
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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Wed May 02, 2018 12:20 pm

Quote :
G/F, I think your situation is symptomatic of a greater problem within today's Christianity.  Christians have lost credibility because some who claim the name are less trustworthy and less Christ-like than some who are actually anti-Christ in their beliefs.  I've got a lot more I'd love to say on this, but I think it would be taking the thread down a rabbit hole, so I'll just stop here.

♩ ♪ ♫ ♬  Jesus said there'd be times like this, there'd be times like this Jesus said ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬ 
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MikeInFla

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Wed May 02, 2018 2:29 pm

I ordered 3 CD's from Girder and two of them were on their label (Sin Dizzy and Whitecross 1987). I also ordered Stryper - Reborn and haven't ordered anything since then.

As for DMD, I ordered all or most of the Intense Millennium CD's from there. Even near the end when people were having issues I ordered The Deluxtone Rockets and it was shipped so everything I ordered from them was sent to me. But I never ordered again. When DMD went away the same guy had a new store envy site called "Christian Metal Yard Sale" where he was selling whatever he had left but I never ordered from there.

This is an old press release I found on one of the bands that signed on but nothing was ever released (to my knowledge).

Seattle, Washington's CRY HOLY has inked a deal with Intense Millennium Records.
CRY HOLY is a six-piece Christian rock band with a sound reminiscent of many of those great melodic rock acts we have grown to love — such as SURVIVOR, JOURNEY and FOREIGNER — yet some how finding a way to forge out a sound that is all their own. They believe strongly that you can provide a Christian message in the music without compromising the music for the message. But don't think this is just your normal Christian rock record full of hymnals and ballads — this is some knock-your-socks-off rock and roll.
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Dynamis

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Wed May 02, 2018 7:49 pm

My history of purchasing music dates to the eighties and Rad Rockers, Kosher Record Distributors and Long's Christian Music, all of which I had good experiences.  Of note this was back during the write-a-check-and-send-it-via-snail-mail days...

Speaking of which, I also ordered back in the day my share of custom cassette releases from Soldier, Revelation, Apostle, Paragon, Driver and others.  Only had one bad experience and that was with a band that I will not mention by name (it is not an upper tier name but a recognizable one nonetheless) whom I sent a $5 money order for a vinyl release.  Never received it despite sending a follow up letter.  No hard feelings after the passing of 30 years, but my only regret is that if I had received it, the album today would be worth several hundred dollars if not more...

Fast forward to the nineties and music retailers are starting to get online but not necessarily with secure cart ordering systems.  I sent a check to an music import retailer from Europe (cannot remember the name) for some real obscure stuff that Rad Rockers wasn't even carrying (new Veni Domine & M Pire) but months and months passed and never received anything.  At just the point I was starting to give up at the six month mark, the package arrived from Europe.  Have no idea what the delay was...

Fast forward to today, and I have had good online experiences ordering from Roxx Records, Christian Metal Distro, Retroactive/Boones Overstock, Nightmare, NEH and CD Universe.  Also order a lot of CD's via eBay.  Due to its bad reputation, have avoided Girder.  Placed an order once with Divine Metal Distro, was having problems and filed a claim with PayPay and DMD promptly refunded my money.
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Dynamis

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Wed May 02, 2018 7:54 pm

Quote :
If only Blastbeats were still around.

Forgot to mention Blastbeats- perhaps the fastest shipping ever.  I recall placing an order on, let's say, Monday and receiving the CD's on Wednesday!  if that is not fast I do not know what is...
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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Wed May 02, 2018 8:22 pm

Wow, totally forgot about Long's Christian Music, I definitely helped them pay their rent for a while  Wink
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alldatndensum
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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Wed May 02, 2018 8:51 pm

Dynamis wrote:
Quote :
If only Blastbeats were still around.

Forgot to mention Blastbeats- perhaps the fastest shipping ever.  I recall placing an order on, let's say, Monday and receiving the CD's on Wednesday!  if that is not fast I do not know what is...


I probably helped keep the lights on at Blastbeats for a few years.  It seemed like I was ordering something from them all the time.  I would even speculate having two orders in a week sometimes.

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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Wed May 02, 2018 11:10 pm

That was me at Crossings. Anyone heard of / remember Crossings ? I had a great deal going with them in the early 2000s where I'd mail them a bunch of cassettes for credit. I was transitioning from tapes to CDs still and had a few hundred tapes. Surprisingly they were still buying/selling tapes. So I had credit orders going all the time. Probably stocked over a hundred CDs from them alone, many with credit
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PostSubject: Re: Secular vs. Christian suppliers   Thu May 03, 2018 6:09 am

I remember Crossings but never bought from them.  It seemed like they didn't get newer stuff as quickly as RR or Blastbeats.  I could never seem to find the OOP stuff I wanted there.

Blastbeats also let you trade CDs in.  You didn't get as much out of them as if you sold some discs, but you could use them for credit on another order.  I'd buy albums only to find out that I didn't like them and trade them back in.  I accrued a lot of music from them.

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