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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:42 pm

A couple of ya know about this, but i thought I'd post this here to get some more opinions.

Came across this meme and thought it interesting and thought provoking in an ironic sorta way... only it got me in "trouble" with the Thought Police. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on this, either way:


 


Here's my reprimand:




Now, in my mind, this is more of a PSA, a "hey, that's true!" kind of post to open some minds and make brains think. 
BUT, I could be mistaken, did I inadvertently post an "ATTACK" on Islam ? 

A better question would be, if I posted a meme trashing or even ATTACKING Christians, would it get the same treatment ?

Your thoughts ?
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:13 pm

I think according to Facebook’s standards, yes you attacked Muslims.

I know you didn’t ask our opinion but you’re getting it anyway. I think the meme isn’t appropriate. That isn’t true of all “Muslim” countries - are all Christians represented by Westboro Baptist Church? I know several Muslims and as a whole, they are very nice people. 

Secondly, the whole concept of a “Christian” country is silly. It doesn’t exist. There may be countries that have more Christians but that’s meaningless. Americans supposedly a “Christian” nation  but we’re probably top 3 in the world for divorce rates, drug use and gun violence. And I know for sure the country that produces the most revenue from pornography is America. 

Lastly, (and I keep going back to this for some reason) what kind of message does that send to non-Christians? That we hate Muslims but it’s okay since we let them live in our “Christian” nation?

Anyway, I’ll grt off my soapbox and go back to work on the plank in my own eye.
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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:32 pm

Ish, bro, first of all - excellent response man. 


Quote :
I know you didn’t ask our opinion
Um, read my very first sentence. I actually did. (Despite the factual sounding statement of the thread's title). And I more than appreciate your response.
I've been known to overstep in the past, and until I hear other's opinions, I think I'm right, or justified. So, in my old age I'm trying to be more wise and seek a more spread out idea/thought/opinion in regards to my social posts. Now if only I'd do that BEFORE I post things  Razz Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:08 pm

Hmm, all the countries I have heard of that are Muslim persecute Christians (but maybe I'm getting skewed news).  I would be interested to hear about a predominantly Muslim country that doesn't persecute Christians (or at least treat them like second class citizens).

I don't see anything wrong with the meme, unless someone can show it is (in most cases) wrong.  It certainly isn't funny, but I'm certain that wasn't the point.

As for comparing Westboro to militant Muslims, I think that is a bit of a stretch.  Westboro screams slurs at people (Christian and non Christian alike), they will sue anyone for just about any reason, but I have never heard of them burning, killing or mutilating people of different faiths.  Sadly it seems I hear about that all too often from militant Muslims in many other countries.

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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:56 pm

I think this meme captures a similar idea I was going for ultimately, in that we're seen as the "threat" while so many other groups and religious organizations are militant and harmful....




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alldatndensum
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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:28 am

Post it as a test, Jim.

With the first one, Facebook may not have been solely responsible.  It only takes one complainer to submit your first meme to a review board.  Any complaints about inappropriate content will usually result in Facebook pulling the message to avoid potential lawsuits--unless it is against Christianity.

Quote :
As for comparing Westboro to militant Muslims, I think that is a bit of a stretch.  Westboro screams slurs at people (Christian and non Christian alike), they will sue anyone for just about any reason, but I have never heard of them burning, killing or mutilating people of different faiths.  Sadly it seems I hear about that all too often from militant Muslims in many other countries.

Very true.  Westboro may be pimples on the butt of humanity, but they aren't committing genocide against Christians in Iraq, Egypt, and Sudan.  Millions have been slaughtered in those countries.  China doesn't slaughter Christians anymore for the most part--they enslave them to work in factories outside of Beijing so we can have cheaply made cell phones that cost us an arm and a leg.  Westboro didn't kill 6,000 innocent Americans on 9/11.

Don't get me wrong--Westboro is no hero.  They are a bunch of hateful, vile people wanting to make a quick buck from other people's suffering.  But, they have largely been defanged with groups like the Patriot Guard showing up to block their protests.  It is hard to sow misery when citizen groups arise just to stop you in your tracks at every turn.  It also hasn't been shown that they are murderers like our radicalized "peace loving" Muslims are concerned.  Westboro is a nuisance compared to what radicalized Muslims and Communist dictators have done.  Most Christians will denounce the actions of Westboro, but you won't see large numbers of Muslims coming forward to denounce terrorism and genocide from the hands of "extremists".

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:32 am

Hey, Jim!  To get us back on the Facebook angle, try reposting that pic in the Christian Hard Music Users private page and see if it goes through.  Just tell everyone what happened and that you are testing to see what happens.  At worst, you'd get blocked from FB for a couple of days or have to build a new page if they pull it again.  If FB is watching that closely, then even a private room should be monitored by them.  Though, if they are truly watching that closely, then they had to have known that fake news sites were trying to influence the election as they would have sold them ad space.  Facebook isn't about being social--it is about monitoring everything you do so they can advertise to you.  Twitter and Instagram are the same.  Amazon is just as bad especially with their Alexa products.  It is all about direct marketing--not love and tolerance.

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:34 pm

Jim (G/F) isn't going to be happy until he gets a permanent ban from facebook.  lol!

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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:21 pm

Quote :
 It only takes one complainer to submit your first meme to a review board.  

Having mulled that over in my mind, I think that may have been what happened. I have an old colleague that I friended a while back. In the past he's been known to defend Muslims when I'd post something about Islamic terrorists (read that carefully... I didn't say posted something about "Muslims"). He has some friends who are Islamic, so I get it. My posts in the past were warnings or ironies about extremist Islam, but, as many do, he interprets it as an attack on the Islam religion and Muslims. 

So it's possible he reported it.


Quote :
 try reposting that pic in the Christian Hard Music Users private page and see if it goes through. 



Quote :
Jim (G/F) isn't going to be happy until he gets a permanent ban from facebook

Yehhhh, nawww. Now that I have grandbabies, I need my Facebook - even if I have to conform to their rules
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Driven

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:59 pm

I generally avoid posting anything of political/religious nature on my wall, except if it's just enjoyable as a laugh. The world has enough fighting in it that I want to avoid needless arguing (which typically serves no purpose except to make people angrier) and replace that with things we can laugh at instead. That's not to say that there isn't a place for discussing such questions, but the comments section is almost never that place. Shocked My rule of thumb is, if I wouldn't say it in person to someone I don't know, I try not to say it on the Internet.

As an aside, I joined a Facebook group for a neighbourhood in Montreal where there's tons of arguing and just general stupidity that goes on. People complaining about things like the use of English. So many visceral and angry reactions. It hurts to see humanity do this. Anyway.

And for what it's worth, I also disagree with the notion of "Christian nation". His kingdom is not of this world. Moreover, wherever the institutional church has controlled a state or nation, things have never gone well. A lot of people go to church out of habit or pressure, not out of desire to know God. When the "bubble" bursts, as it has in Québec only some 50-60 years ago, people abandon the church in droves, and with it abandon Christianity at large. I support a level of religious neutrality that encourages mutual respect. That said, as Bill Menchen pointed out on his Facebook lately, a nation whose population generally follows God tends to experience some level of blessing and prosperity, not as a necessary causality, but as a natural outcome of having wisdom.

That's my thoughts for the subject.
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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:39 pm

Quote :
My rule of thumb is, if I wouldn't say it in person to someone I don't know, I try not to say it on the Internet.

My problem is, the older I get, the more things I have zero problem with saying to strangers  Wink

Quote :

And for what it's worth, I also disagree with the notion of "Christian nation".

Definitely no such animal "per se". While we cannot steal from the Jews the verse about "If My people who are called by My Name... then I shall heal THEIR Land" as it doesn't apply to Christians exactly.
I think the meme def takes liberty with the "U.S." "being" a "Christian nation", as it clearly is not today. It was, however, founded on Biblical principles regardless how screwed up those founding fathers were. The intentions of those who set up standards that have endured for the most part to this day were mostly of a Christian ideology. These days however, "75% of polled American adults identifying themselves as Christian in 2015" - Whether it's the case or not (and the decay of our society says different), there is still a huge remnant in our country. I believe God still blesses countries who seek Him, which we have seen through all the corruption that still remains. So, if 75% claims Christianity, "roughly 46.5% of Americans are Protestants, 20.8% are Catholics" then however corrupt, we still have a huge # of Christians that welcome Muslims in our country, taking the risk that some may be Allahu Akbar screaming murderers with no souls or consciences, then the meme stands. It stands cuz I challenge ANY Christian who takes issue with the meme to spend a week in a predominantly Muslim country. 

I hear what everyone is saying and I have weighed it all... and I stand by the meme.
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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:57 pm

9/11/2001 should have made our country more skittish to those claiming to be "peace-loving" Muslims, instead, Islam suddenly became MORE protected - with more people of all walks of life defending Islam and condemning our President for trying to protect us by closing borders to questionable Muslims. What the heck ? I'm all for religious freedom, but we have a religion containing loose canons that may or may not blow up a building with thousands of innocent Americans in it, compared to a religion that "disagrees" with certain lifestyles or beliefs, but does it without mass bloodshed and THEY get villified, WE get the shaft. 

I worked with a Muslim pharmacist for 8 years, side by side, just me and him. We were at peace and good friends until he died a while back. We could discuss any topic without incident. When HE brought up religion and asked me about what I personally believed, I told him Jesus was and is the Son of God - he went from the peaceful Muslim we all hear they are, to a screaming, angry, vein-bulging judge of my very soul !  This happened on more than one occasion. Here. In America. Where he was invited over the border for the American dream. I did not incite him, he asked me what I believed. That's it. I asked him once if I were to stay at his other house in Egypt if I would be allowed to practice my faith. He hemmed and hawed and would not give me a straight answer. I never hated him or raised my voice to him, he was my friend and colleague. We remained friends until his passing a while back, but I refused to discuss religion around him. (My wife even got her head bit off when they talked religion once, although she has much thicker skin than me and told him "Well Shaban, to each their own and to us the Truth")

I don't wanna be a "paranoid", since I know what Jesus said about us being hated and persecuted, but I also don't want to sit back and cover my eyes to what's really going on in this world today.
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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:31 pm

You're not paranoid, Jim.  There's a bizarre romance between liberals and Muslims that I just don't understand.  But it's already become deadly (all the terrorist attacks in the countries that opened wide their doors to the many false "refugees"*) and is sure to only continue.  I somewhat recently watched a very eye-opening documentary about how ISIS is recruiting in broad-daylight in London.  One of the guys in this documentary was the one who stabbed people on the London Bridge.  This is real...








*Obviously most of the refugees were probably totally legit, but MANY were not...
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:04 am

YGuilty/Forgiven wrote:
Quote :
My rule of thumb is, if I wouldn't say it in person to someone I don't know, I try not to say it on the Internet.

My problem is, the older I get, the more things I have zero problem with saying to strangers  Wink

Quote :

And for what it's worth, I also disagree with the notion of "Christian nation".

Definitely no such animal "per se". While we cannot steal from the Jews the verse about "If My people who are called by My Name... then I shall heal THEIR Land" as it doesn't apply to Christians exactly.
I think the meme def takes liberty with the "U.S." "being" a "Christian nation", as it clearly is not today. It was, however, founded on Biblical principles regardless how screwed up those founding fathers were. The intentions of those who set up standards that have endured for the most part to this day were mostly of a Christian ideology. These days however, "75% of polled American adults identifying themselves as Christian in 2015" - Whether it's the case or not (and the decay of our society says different), there is still a huge remnant in our country. I believe God still blesses countries who seek Him, which we have seen through all the corruption that still remains. So, if 75% claims Christianity, "roughly 46.5% of Americans are Protestants, 20.8% are Catholics" then however corrupt, we still have a huge # of Christians that welcome Muslims in our country, taking the risk that some may be Allahu Akbar screaming murderers with no souls or consciences, then the meme stands. It stands cuz I challenge ANY Christian who takes issue with the meme to spend a week in a predominantly Muslim country. 

I hear what everyone is saying and I have weighed it all... and I stand by the meme.
I think it’s also worth pointing out that when Yahweh spoke of the “nation of Israel”, he was talking about a group of people descended from Jacob (whise name he changed to Israel) he made a covenant with, not a political and geographical location on the map like we do today. In fact, the nation lived in many different countries throughout the Old Testament, including Egypt, Persia and of course what we now refer to as Israel. So long story short, it really didn’t even apply to the Israelites he way most people think of today. 

Secondly, you may be correct. All the statistics would point that way, and I certainly appreciate science, statistics, logic and facts. But I still have to go back to what something like that says to people who see it. 

You quoted 2 Chronicles above, here’s a few about refugees:

When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. (Leviticus 19:33-34)

When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. (Leviticus 19:9-10)

He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt. (Deuteronomy 10:18-19)

Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. (Ezekiel 16:49) (overfed and greedy? Sounds familiar...)

Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt. (Exodus 23:9)
“So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,” says the Lord Almighty. (Malachi 3:5)
“As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your name— for they will hear of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm—when they come and pray toward this temple, then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your Name. (1 Kings 8:41-44)
No stranger had to spend the night in the street, for my door was always open to the traveler (Job, discussing his devotion to God) (Job 31:32)
For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ (Matthew 25:25-36)
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:14)
He asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.” (Luke 10:29-37)



Unless my translation is broken, there’s no qualification that refugees have to follow some standard that we set in order to live in “our” country. I know it’s uncomfortable but if a million Muslims tried to become refugees here in America, even if all of them were Allah Akbar screaming murderers, biblically we not only cannot stop them from entering, we would need to welcome them, offer them a place to stay and (horror of horrors) serve them like Jesus would. 
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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:11 pm

Quote :
Unless my translation is broken, there’s no qualification that refugees have to follow some standard that we set in order to live in “our” country. I know it’s uncomfortable but if a million Muslims tried to become refugees here in America, even if all of them were Allah Akbar screaming murderers, biblically we not only cannot stop them from entering, we would need to welcome them, offer them a place to stay and (horror of horrors) serve them like Jesus would.

On a Christian level, I agree wholeheartedly.  But, a nation needs to have its own laws.  If we are truly a Christian nation, then we would be bound to follow that.  Since we are a secular nation with lots of Christians here, then the nation itself should have the choice whether to receive these people based on whatever level of threat they pose.  Would you ask a rapist to move into your house with your wife or daughters if the guy was knowingly not changed?  No.  Would you let a druggie sleep inside a pharmacy overnight if he was homeless?  No.  Why?  It would be too much of a risk.

While those are straw men, they are examples to get at what I am saying.  A secular government has the ability to decide if these people are too much of a threat to the people they are sworn to protect.  As a Christian, I should be trying to show love and minister to these guests of our nation if they are allowed by the government to come in.  If the government puts a stop to it, then that is their right and doesn't stop me from trying to take care of those inside already. 

If the current administration determines that people from nations that are known sponsors of terrorism pose too much of a threat to the nation's safety and welfare and bar them from coming, then I will support that.

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:25 pm

While we are ranting at Facebook, I wish they'd give you a tool to only allow some people to tag you and deny all others.  I can't stand when artists or pages tag you just so they can makes sure that they advertise to you.  I know that you have to do what you have to do to promote yourself, but it gets old seeing stuff from the same people tagging you to like their page or buy their record or whatever.  I will support the albums I want to support.  I might go to a show if you actually have one locally.  I can guarantee that I won't be there if you repeatedly tag me but have no idea what state I am in or if I even am close enough to make the show.

I just really hate getting tagged to see stuff that I could care less if I see or not.

Maybe I am just not cut out for social media.

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:49 pm

I'm with ya!
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:42 pm

alldatndensum wrote:
Quote :
Unless my translation is broken, there’s no qualification that refugees have to follow some standard that we set in order to live in “our” country. I know it’s uncomfortable but if a million Muslims tried to become refugees here in America, even if all of them were Allah Akbar screaming murderers, biblically we not only cannot stop them from entering, we would need to welcome them, offer them a place to stay and (horror of horrors) serve them like Jesus would.

On a Christian level, I agree wholeheartedly.  But, a nation needs to have its own laws.  If we are truly a Christian nation, then we would be bound to follow that.  Since we are a secular nation with lots of Christians here, then the nation itself should have the choice whether to receive these people based on whatever level of threat they pose.  Would you ask a rapist to move into your house with your wife or daughters if the guy was knowingly not changed?  No.  Would you let a druggie sleep inside a pharmacy overnight if he was homeless?  No.  Why?  It would be too much of a risk.

While those are straw men, they are examples to get at what I am saying.  A secular government has the ability to decide if these people are too much of a threat to the people they are sworn to protect.  As a Christian, I should be trying to show love and minister to these guests of our nation if they are allowed by the government to come in.  If the government puts a stop to it, then that is their right and doesn't stop me from trying to take care of those inside already. 

If the current administration determines that people from nations that are known sponsors of terrorism pose too much of a threat to the nation's safety and welfare and bar them from coming, then I will support that

My concern is what the picture communicates to others as believers. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll stand for what I believe is right and true and I don’t people please. However, I also won’t say/email/post something that is derogatory about other people. 

Muslims are valued just as much as Christians by God. So are atheists. So are (fill in the blank). By reducing all Muslims to that picture, it makes it an us vs them secenario which is no way to further the kingdom. 

And with that, I should probably consider exiting this conversation. I know my views on this kind of thing aren’t popular with some other Christians and I don’t want to be divisive.
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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:29 pm

Lots of good responses and good info guys. 
I won't rehash anything as it's all been said.

However, I would like to say that I think the meme would be 100% true if it showed that Muslims in America are welcomed with arms open, fit the happy-go-lucky family all-American-dream picture above, while Americans who practice THEIR OWN RELIGIONS (esp Jew and Christians) entering ISLAMIC PREDOMINANT COUNTRIES would certainly be UNWELCOME, NOT ALLOWED TO OWN A HOUSE or any PROPERTY, be STRONGLY PERSECUTED and very possibly would end up as one in the bottom picture LOSING THEIR LIVES simply cuz they won't deny Jesus and bow to Islam.

Now, that's why WE stay here, where we can still practice our faith in a Country that is still "somewhat" free... and stay OUT of those Muslim countries.

I had another thought, from history. During WW2 our country created huge camps to house Japanese/American citizens as we were at war with Japan. This was not only for our protection (in case there were any Japanese Americans who were spies - those who may cause American casualties by having their very citizenship here), but it was also for THEIR protection. Back then, Americans had strong fears that their Japanese neighbor could bring them harm, as well as those Americans who were prejudice cuz of being at war with their home country.
There were Americans for and Americans against the idea of these safety camps.

Today, we're at war with countries that have attacked us due to their religion of EXTREMIST Islam... and we can't even say anything bad about them cuz America has sanctioned them for special protection.

Weird country.

Weird life.
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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:05 am

Quote :

However, I would like to say that I think the meme would be 100% true if

That is the issue with making a point on Facebook or wherever with a meme.  A meme usually takes the most polarizing statement while poking some fun or sarcasm at the opposing side.  If someone with opposing views replies, then it has to be true, right?  That's why social media fails as a true social builder.  It's more about views, retweets, likes, and arguments than anything.  Why?  Because if you are engaging with others, then you are potentially seeing more advertising.  Facebook and Twitter are the same.  They both are advertising companies.  We just tie ourselves to their proverbial hitching posts and they slip their paid for ads right in front of us while we rip one another to pieces.

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I might have decided, or maybe not, that I should or shouldn't, depending on the issue or non-issue, to possibly share or not share, any thoughts, opinions, or facts (that might not be deemed factual by some), due to possible fear of any misinterpretation or retribution.
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Jen5

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:13 pm

Late to the party. I probably shouldn't respond to this thread, but I'm very affected by it so I feel I must say my piece. I haven't read through the entire thread since I found it rather unsettling so stopped about half way through. Call me a wuss. I am. I know it.  : )

While I understand the ironic point you were making, Jim, I think you've taken the extremes of both sides of the argument to make that point. It's simply not true that a Muslim living in a "Christian" country is all sunshine and roses. Hate crime anyone? It's also not true that every Muslim is an extremist (I know you all would agree with that statement) and it's not true that every Muslim country puts a gun to the head of their Christian brothers. Mali - peaceful co-existence and equal rights. Even Syria has extensive laws about freedom of religion (albeit those laws are often broken). My point is that it's inflammatory to put sunshine and roses next to hooded men with guns to their heads.

The definition of an extremist is one who operates at the extreme edge of something (in this case, a belief). By definition, an extremist is a minority within the group, a person operating on the fringes. What I find insulting about the meme is that it's perpetuating a stereotype, appealing to feeling rather than fact.

Extremist beliefs (be they political or religious) do not promote understanding and tolerance of the other. Extremists of any faith are a cancer. Each of us has a duty to do everything we can to peacefully curb the spread of that cancer. I don't think your meme is helpful in that regard. Instead, it  promotes extreme views on our side of the fence by people who may not have the resources to understand your intentions.

You make a very interesting observation and there's definitely truth in it, but, personally, I agree with Facebook for pulling it. NOT because your heart wasn't in the right place or because your point wasn't astute, but because you took two extremes (sunshine and hell) and put them together to illustrate "reality." It's too inflammatory.
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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:25 pm

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kerrick

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:39 pm

Jen5 wrote:
While I understand the ironic point you were making, Jim, I think you've taken the extremes of both sides of the argument to make that point. It's simply not true that a Muslim living in a "Christian" country is all sunshine and roses. Hate crime anyone? It's also not true that every Muslim is an extremist (I know you all would agree with that statement) and it's not true that every Muslim country puts a gun to the head of their Christian brothers. Mali - peaceful co-existence and equal rights. Even Syria has extensive laws about freedom of religion (albeit those laws are often broken). My point is that it's inflammatory to put sunshine and roses next to hooded men with guns to their heads.

The definition of an extremist is one who operates at the extreme edge of something (in this case, a belief). By definition, an extremist is a minority within the group, a person operating on the fringes. What I find insulting about the meme is that it's perpetuating a stereotype, appealing to feeling rather than fact.

Extremist beliefs (be they political or religious) do not promote understanding and tolerance of the other. Extremists of any faith are a cancer. Each of us has a duty to do everything we can to peacefully curb the spread of that cancer. I don't think your meme is helpful in that regard. Instead, it  promotes extreme views on our side of the fence by people who may not have the resources to understand your intentions.

I recommend watching this short but very informative video.  It was very eye-opening to me.  I'd generally agree with your sentiments about extremists and such, though in the context of Islam, I don't think it applies since the "extremists" are the majority, not minority (according to this source and others, though I'm sure there are disagreements on that).

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Jen5

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:06 pm

That was very interesting. I still don't think it quite hits the mark though. And, like the meme, is also misleading. It's a poorly structured argument because he uses statistics alongside generalisations to the effect that the generalisations seem like fact because they are placed next to statistics. He mentions terrorism at the beginning but then goes on to talk about corporal punishment and the like  which are supported in the religious texts of Islam (similar to Christian views on the subject in the not-to-distant past, e.g., the last witch trial was held in the 20th century in the UK of all places). But, while I don't agree with corporal punishment, it is NOT the same thing as terrorism. Of course, I totally support the reformation he proposes -- the beliefs he lists are dated and harmful and promote violence and need to change. I also applaud him for persisting with raising awareness because certainly those "bad beliefs" he mentions are a seed for terrorism. But he hasn't proven that most Muslims support terrorism.

I have often wondered what would happen if the world's leaders lost their charisma overnight. If there were no Imam capable of flaming the fires of jihad in the ignorant, if there were no journalists making inflammatory statements in the guise of considered argument to pull us in...would all the people of the world go home like sheep to peaceful pasture????
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Xid

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PostSubject: Re: Facebook and the end of Free Speech   Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:01 pm

Jen5 wrote:
...would all the people of the world go home like sheep to peaceful pasture????

No.  For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
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