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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:53 am

(I apologize ahead for this thread, as know it could possibly bring out strong opinions on both sides... I hope that we can be civil and loving should we begin to disagree. This disclaimer probably isn't necessary as everyone gets along quite well here... it's those OTHER boards that have me paranoid about topics like this... haha !)

I'm noticing something more and more. Now, it's just an observation, NOT a judgment, nor a conclusion.
Several mainstream, not-Christian (sometimes ANTI-CHRISTIAN) artists in popular bands have come to faith. Then they Leave the secular band to pursue a career in Christian music, only to later rejoin the original popular non-Christian bands.

Just a few examples would be:

* Brian "Head" Welch went back to KORN
* "Oil" frontman Ron Rinehart went back to DARK ANGEL
* On June 19, 2010 Josh Brown of "Day of Fire" played a one-time reunion show with his old band "Full Devil Jacket" to benefit the James Michael Reaves Medical Expense Fund, after that show the band decided to reunite and plans to release new material.

Now again, I don't judge these believers, but if I were in their shoes, I wouldn't join back up with my old band.
Course that's just me though.  Perhaps they feel that they could reach more souls in their old popular band.  But then, they aren't singing their Christian material, or new lyrics with God in mind... perhaps they feel they'd be better witnesses to the fellow band mates if they were back in the band ?  But I've read many biographies - for example, Brian Welch said he had terrible addictions on the road. If I were in his shoes, I'd be scared to go on the road again and relapse.

I can see these things:
1. They're grown men, and they can do whatever they want.
2. There could be more opportunities to share your faith back in the secular band.
3. There's no money in Christian music (not to mention the terrible labels that have screwed so many)

But I can also see these:
1. There are large audiences of young, or just ignorant Christians who are happy when one of their previous favorite artists comes to faith just as they did... only to go back to that secular band - Could this stumble, or simply confuse those believers ?
2. On the road and recording with previous non-believing band mates in a secular setting... like the Lost in Space robot would say: Danger ! Danger !
3. If they returned for the money, what does that say about their trust in God ?

Now, again, no judging, no mean spirit... just a little confusion, and a desire to hear everyone's opinions and thoughts on this.
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alldatndensum
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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:56 am

I'll be honest--it confuses me as well.  Why would anyone want to return to their past knowing that you are going to be sowing the same seeds to the audience?  If your lyrics were definitely not God honoring, why go back to that? 

Of course, maybe they go back hoping to see the rest of the band saved.  I don't remember which one, but another of Korn has become a Christian.  Maybe they all will come to faith eventually.  But, I would say that it would be very risky to go back into the same situations without strong prayer support and accountability partners, too.

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rockerVu2

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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:02 am

It's confusing me as well.
When you are a member of a Christian band, why you would go back to your old secular band?
Maybe it's for the $$$?
Maybe they don't agree with the labels they are with?
Who knows it.
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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:10 pm

A few of them came to Christ and never left their "secular" band.

Nicko McBrain (drummer for Iron Maiden).  I had read somewhere that he asked his pastor if he should leave Iron Maiden and was encouraged to stay.
Peter Baltes (bass player for Accept)

Then there is Dave Mustaine, Blackie Lawless, and Alice Cooper....these guys never left their original band after coming to Christ, but it could be easily argued that they ARE the band.

I can bet several of them might have done it for more than one reason, and as long as they don't turn their backs on Christ (or their fellow Christians)...I'm not sure I would take too much exception to it (unless the music/life-style/image is truly wicked).  Sometimes the label of "Christianity" that people put on themselves isn't necessarily what we would consider a Christian to be (that is likely the same with people at this very message board).

Don't forget somehow Victor Griffin has managed to reunite with his old secular band Pentagram and still releases solo/Place of Skulls music that still appears to honor God...so I think it can be done (but it can't necessarily be easy).

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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:16 pm

Excellent points/thoughts.

I'm going to consider this from a different POV here:
When you're in a band, no matter what kind of band, it's your career.  If I worked in a pharmacy for several years and the manager was an anti-Christian who had me do questionable and dishonest things to make money, then one day I came to faith and left that particular pharmacy.  Then I hooked up with a new pharmacy, owned and operated by Christians... I would NEVER go back to the other pharmacy - EVER ! 

Now that's just me. Course this is a poor illustration/comparison... but still, it makes sense to me. Perhaps the "new" pharmacy didn't pay half as much as the crooked pharmacy... I STILL wouldn't go back.

There is a whole other thread (and we've covered it in the past) on artists like Alice, Mustaine, Lawless, and others who come to faith and stay in their same band.  I say, if you're the "leader" - you're the one who MAKES that band, then you're the boss, you have say-so over the lyrics and on-stage activity and cover art, etc.

Ultimately, I don't judge any of these fine musicians/Christian brothers... but I do scratch my head as I think of what I would do if it were me.
I'm sure they do have their reasonings, and they're probably between them and God.  Should they reveal their motives in interviews, perhaps the other band members or fans of the secular band may be turned off. Idk. It's an interesting conundrum for sure.
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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:13 pm

Various member of Kansas have gone back to Kansas, including Kerry Livgrin who produced a recent album by them.

As for me, over the course of my former broadcasting career I worked at Christian radio stations and secular stations and I have to say I would never work in Christian radio again, ever. Some of the worst people, some mean and nasty and judge-mental. At the secular stations I have worked with old hippies, pretty boys & pretty girls and they were so much better to work with than the grumps at the Christian station. The "secular" Classic Rock, Country and Top 40 people were more desirable to be around and easier to work with.
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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:07 pm

On a similar note, many artists who were in HUGE bands and came to faith, then left, didn't do so well as far as "popularity" or "Income" goes... but then as believers, we were never called to be "popular" and money is not our goal.
Here are several artists, most from the 60s and 70s, who were BIG in the mainstream world, when they came to faith, they attempted to use their talents in the Christian realm... some did ok, not great, and some didn't turn any heads whatsoever... it's rather sad actually.

Drummer Joe English left Paul McCartney's band and released a couple Christian albums.
Guitarist Bryn Haworth left Eric Clapton's band and pursued a Christian music career.
Backup singer Bonnie Bramlett also left Clapton's band for the Christian music industry.
Richard Furay, of POCO and Souther, Hillman, Furay Band left the secular music to release Christian albums.
Terry Talbot (and his brother John Michael) left Mason Proffit after coming to faith, released several Christian albums.
Leon Patillo, formerly with Santana, turned his back on secular music and released many Christian albums.
Dion "The Wanderer" came to faith and left the mainstream for a less-than-successful Gospel career.
Ed Raetzloff, leader of Blue Jug - also played with Lynyrd Skynyrd, accepted Christ, released (I think) only one album and never went anywhere.
Rick Cua had a huge thing with The Outlaws, came to faith and did pretty good as a solo Christian artist, but barely made a living on it.
Al Green was a huge pop-selling artist, became an ordained minister and released some faith filled albums, but not as popular as before.
Reggie Vincent performed with Alice Cooper, John Lennon and others - after coming to faith, released some Christian material that is floating in obscurity.
Dan Peek of America (the Horse with No Name band), left and released a few solo Christian albums... most people are unaware of.
Billy Preston worked with many artists including the Rolling Stones, has been very active in Christian music, but is surely not making the kind of cash he used to.
Kerry Livgren - despite raking in a lot of cash from his Kansas years, was pretty much unknown on Christian music shelves.
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:55 pm

In regards to Head, I recall reading a couple years ago the band is sober. And yes, one if the other guys is a Christian too. 

This is a topic I've always found interesting but hate to speculate too much. We all have to make our own decisions about things and I'm sure they all have their own reason.
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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:48 pm

I think that is all any of us is doing is speculating.  We have admitted our own confusion because we don't know the hearts or thoughts of the musicians referred to here.

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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:22 am

I think that's what it all boils down to.

And this was just a thread for me to kinda work it out a little in my head, chat it over with ya'all and hear your opinions and thoughts as well.  Many of which are exactly what I was thinking as well.

Also, on a side note, I love the fact that we can talk about this here and no one gets real black and white and argumentative over things.  Just makes me love hanging out with you guys all that more.
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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:16 am

We don't get all argumentative here because everyone knows that Staybrite and I are always right.  We once thought we were wrong, but we were only mistaken.

lol! lol! lol!

(This message was made using BullCrap Pro 13.1)

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oteis

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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:33 am

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Bob Dylan yet.

i'd also like to add Philip Bailey who pursued a solo career after leaving Earth Wind & Fire. During his solo career he released both christian and mainstream albums.
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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:45 am

I have 2 Christian releases by Philip Bailey - pretty cool. Now, did he return to EW&F ?
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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:43 pm

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:
I have 2 Christian releases by Philip Bailey - pretty cool. Now, did he return to EW&F ?
No he did not return to EW&F, but he kept playing mainstream, while recording christian albums. Just like Cliff Richard as i recall.
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rockerVu2

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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:02 am

It's true we can make all kinds of posts about secular/christian/secular musicians.
But we don't know what's in their heart.

That makes it a bit hard for us to juge.
You don't know wht they have taken these steps.
The words Chris has written are so true.
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:10 am

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:
I think that's what it all boils down to.

And this was just a thread for me to kinda work it out a little in my head, chat it over with ya'all and hear your opinions and thoughts as well.  Many of which are exactly what I was thinking as well.

Also, on a side note, I love the fact that we can talk about this here and no one gets real black and white and argumentative over things.  Just makes me love hanging out with you guys all that more.

That makes sense.

I think going to your own example of pharmacy work -

What if you worked for a pharmacy that wasn't corrupt but the owners weren't Christian? Then after you went to work with the Christian owners, the other folks called you and offered a higher salary, more benefits, more vacation time and better hours?

I don't know about you, but I'd consider going back. At least, I'd talk to my current employer and tell them about the offer and see if they could meet it.

The parallel here is that maybe the secular band some of these guys play with isn't so terrible...

Again, this is all conjecture. But it makes sense that some of these artists go back to their secular band because they enjoy it and they make their living that way.
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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:24 pm

Exactly !  Good points Ish81.  

Quote :
But it makes sense that some of these artists go back to their secular band because they enjoy it and they make their living that way.

...and they have long-time friends from those old bands. 

I was surprised when Vic Griffin went back to Pentegram (I mean, the name alone denotes a symbol popular in darker circles like the occult or satanism, though it doesn't HAVE to be, in most rock and roll cases, it is)... I refrained from judging him on this and decided he must have his reason (esp since some of the lyrics by Pentegram aren't exactly pro-Christian --Haha).
Anyways, all I could find online was this interview where the question is asked, but not from a "Why did you go back since you're a Christian and Pentegram doesn't jive with this faith at all ?" point of view. Nevertheless, it's pretty interesting:

"What was the reason you returned five years ago after a long hiatus?"
Victor: "Like I was saying before, Bobby and I hit it off when we met in 1981 and we’ve never had a serious fall out or anything like that. A lot of the times, the reason for us splitting up was that the band would become stagnant. I would get bored with the whole thing. I wanted to move forward with some kind of musical career or opportunity. Maybe some other opportunities would present themselves, and I felt like I had an obligation for myself to check out other possibilities. Around 2009, when I heard that Pentagram was actually back together on the road touring, I was really curious about it because I hadn’t spoken to Bobby in a long time. Knowing he had some health issues from drug addiction, I was curious how he was getting along. I ended up going to see a show or two, and he seemed to be doing very well. We got a chance to hang out a little bit together. You know, old friends talking and reminiscing and things like that. He seemed to be doing well with his health and staying sober. One thing led to another, and it seemed like a natural progression that we would come back together.


In the same interview, Vic talks about his other band Place Of Skulls and how great they're doing, and the fact that they're currently recording a new album as well.
So it's an interesting phenomenon for me. I read verses about repenting, leaving family and friends to follow Christ, avoiding even the appearance of evil, etc... but then there's another side as well - Jesus hung out with and fellowshiped with alcoholics, sluts, and tax collectors (aka thieves Laughing  ).  Seems to go back to the whole being in the world but not of it kinda thing, I guess.



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Through The Dark Radio

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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:19 pm

Plus, a lot of the bands are older now and really don't do what they did back when they first were around.  They've actually kind of grown up Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:21 pm

Another good point TTDR.  I've read many rock biographies and towards the end of most of them, they've kicked all their vices, are into healthy eating and exercise, settled down with a family (in itself brings about higher morals most of the time) and are sometimes thankful they even made it this far.
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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:14 pm

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:
In the same interview, Vic talks about his other band Place Of Skulls and how great they're doing, and the fact that they're currently recording a new album as well.

WHAT?!?  Is this a recent interview???  Please do share!!!
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Dynamis

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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:17 pm

Quote :
As for me, over the course of my former broadcasting career I worked at Christian radio stations and secular stations and I have to say I would never work in Christian radio again, ever. Some of the worst people, some mean and nasty and judge-mental. At the secular stations I have worked with old hippies, pretty boys & pretty girls and they were so much better to work with than the grumps at the Christian station. The "secular" Classic Rock, Country and Top 40 people were more desirable to be around and easier to work with.

If honest I am sure most (if not all) of us here will admit to at least on one occasion being part of group related situations (it does not have to be work) with fellow believers who reveal their worst sides: Nasty, negative, point the finger, judgmental, gossipy, unkind, mean spirited, etc.

It has been my experience in (the majority if not) all such circumstances you are dealing with individuals who lack spiritual maturity.  So the key is to discern a spiritually immature group of believers as opposed to one which is mature.  In my opinion (and I do not wish to open a can of worms) spiritual maturity manifests itself in understanding how love is impartial (as a Christian you treat everyone the same), faith equates to hard times (as a Christian you are not exempt from the trials and tribulations of life) and the importance of grace in the faith of weakness (as a Christian the focus should not necessarily be on minimizing weakness but rather maximizing love).

I am sure there are others characteristics and traits of spiritual maturity that others would like to add, but this is my two cents based upon personal experience.

On a side note, even though I work for a well known secular corporation, most of the members of my immediate nine person work group are fellow believers (including a couple preacher wives).  For the most part I have not encountered any overt negativity, judgmental-ism, nastiness, etc.
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MikeInFla

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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:29 am

And all Christian artists don't seem to be very honest. I won't mention any names here but someone mentioned in this thread played guitar on one album that several people ordered for $5 and never received the CD or their $5 back. I almost ordered said album and after hearing some samples passed on it... Then I thought about it "What's 5 bucks I can help an artist out and get it anyway". Then reports were going around that people were not getting anything in the mail in return. 

As a side not my wife has been a stay at home mom for 20 years. She worked from time to time (part time) in churches when the kids were small and she could keep them there for free. She worked at many churches in Tennessee, Missouri and now Florida. Always part time just to make a little extra for Christmas or whatever. Well, this year our youngest bird began to fly and started Kindergarten. My wife decided she wanted to go back to work full time so she got a job as the Librarian at the school where both of our daughters attend. She said since being there (when school started) that it is the best job she has ever had and she would never work for a church again because of all the judgemental people. I told her I had been telling her that for years when I left Christian radio. She said at the school the people are nicer and don't point fingers at everything you do... It is a Charter school and she knows a LOT of the staff from church already and all of them told them it was a better choice to work at the school instead of the church. So she is working a "secular" job with a bunch of Christians. They have "prayer at the pole" from time to time and have a large number of students involved in FCA.

I personally have no problem with Christians going back to their old bands. Dave Hope, original bassist of Kansas, lives near here in Destin, FL. He is a retired pastor and if Kansas ever plays in our area he will join them for a few songs.


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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:32 am

I always wonder about this topic when talking about the verse that says to be in the world but not of it. So many believers try to make that verse say things it doesn't, namely that we need a whole subculture of "Christian" entertainment.
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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:39 am

I understand the concern of people who see these guys return their old bands. But the older I get, the more I believe that we each stand or fall before God on our own. Of course, if we truly believe that our brother is going into sin and/or danger, we have to warn them. But that should be out of a loving heart that is looking to get them back on the right road. The problem is that those who are doing the warning (A) don't know the people they're talking to (or yelling at); (B) don't often know the situation they're warning against and whether it is really bad or not; (C) aren't doing it from a loving heart, but rather a judgmental spirit that wants everyone to agree with them and do things their way. That used to be me. I get it. But as I've gotten older, and drawn closer to Christ, I realize just how messed up we all are. I have no idea what would make a brother go back to a secular band, but I'm not going to judge him for it. If I see his actions not glorifying the Lord Jesus, then I can speak up, in love, to him - not yell out in public for all the world to hear.
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PostSubject: Re: Secular/Christian/Secular   Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:10 pm

Follower of Jesus, I am in complete agreement with you.  But as for this thread, I started it with pure motives - 100% curiosity, not with the intention of gossip or judgments (as I tried to make clear in the "disclaimer").  My main motive for this thread was the sincere confusion I have in multiple artists returning to their bands. If it were a couple here and there, I wouldn't bat an eye, but there are SO many that I sincerely wonder why ?  Do they have a spiritual purpose for returning ? Is it financial (which I still don't judge or look at them differently... everyone needs to make a living)... For me it's just a curiosity.  I've considered asking some of them, but I don't want them to feel as though I'm being judgmental or haughty.  I got some great responses here, as expected - and as expected, no judgmental or negative responses.
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